The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

For design validation in preparation for merging into publicly released devices
Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:16 pm

The Phoenix Hand is ready for fabrication and mechanical function testing.

This is not intended for recipients yet. At this stage we're looking for big problems that can be spotted by having many people build hands at various sizes.

Guidlines:

1) Please post all feedback here on the forum. You can add pictures to the thread. It also keeps all the feedback in one place, making it easier to find everyone's comments.

2) When you decide to print one, I'd appreciate it if you write a reply telling us that you're doing it and posting the size. I'd also love it if everyone could glance at the sizes that have already been built. If we all build different sizes, then we can test it at a much wider range. I'd like to make a chart showing what dental bands work at various size hands.

I've already made the hand at 100%, and I'm making a 125% hand now. I'll make a list here and edit it as people add their data.

SIZE - MAKER - PALM KNUCKLE BAND - FINGERTIP BAND - RESULT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100% - Jason M. Bryant - 5/16 - 1/4 - Printed and strung up successfully
105% - Jpc
110% - Drew Murray
115% - James D. Hatch - 5/16 - 1/4 - Printed and strung up successfully
120% - mmcginnis9272 - Printed and strung up successfully
125% - Jason M. Bryant - 3/8 - 1/4 - Printed and strung up successfully
130% - Scott Darrow - 3/8 -5/16 - Printed and strung up successfully
135% -John Diamond - 3/8 -5/16 - Printed and strung up successfully
140% - Iain
145% - Justin Lavigueure - Printed and strung up successfully
150% - Stephen Davies
150% - Chris Thompson - Printed
155% - Filipe Wiltgen
160% -
165% - James D Hatch
170% - Sarah

You don't *have* to pick a size that isn't already covered. If the only thing left is a size that you don't want to print, feel free to be the second person to print at a size.

3) When you post issues with your test hands, please remind me what size hand you printed.


Things to test:

1) Are there printing problems?

2) Are the instructions clear? There are two sets of instructions, short instructions for experienced users and complete instructions. Both of these need to be proofread and tested for clarity.

3) Are there any other assembly problems?

4) Do the fingers bend properly? They should bend at the palm first and only start bending at the fingertips when the palm knuckles can't bend anymore.

5) Are the dental bands too hard to put on? Do they come off too easily? Please post exactly which joints are having problems. For example, "I can't get the band over the pinky fingertip, but the one on the thumb at the palm flies off all the time."

6) Anything else you can think of.


Files:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/crnrp4tzsrwn ... ibwZa?dl=0

Thanks to everyone. I feel like this hand has a lot of potential, and I'm looking forward to the feedback.
Last edited by Jason M Bryant on Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:31 am, edited 23 times in total.

AdamArabian
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:04 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby AdamArabian » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:41 pm

Jason, can you either point me to the original link or summarize key points of innovation on the new hand?

Scott Darrow
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:46 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Scott Darrow » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:50 pm

I can test print one at 130%
Looks awesome!

jamesdhatch
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:44 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:46 pm

I'll do a 115% print.

Jim

StephenDavies
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby StephenDavies » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:14 pm

I will build and wear a 150% version to test. I'm gonna add a thermo palm, and use my new thermo double strap gauntlet. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:864030 :)

droomurray
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby droomurray » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:30 pm

I will do 110%

Drew

Makerden
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Makerden » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:02 pm

I will do 140%
Iain

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:05 pm

Stephen, the thermopalm for the Raptor Reloaded will not fit this hand. The shape of the palm is a little different, so I'll have to make a new thermopalm when we're farther along with testing.

Adam, the original post is here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=162

Thanks for all your help, guys.

mmcginnis9272
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby mmcginnis9272 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:18 pm

Put me down for 120%

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:44 pm

Stephen, I actually have a special test for your hand. Will a Lee Tippi fit on that huge, 150% thumb? That's going to be a beast.

If anyone is brave enough to print a hand at over 150%, I'll have the same question.

john.diamond
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:02 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:04 am

I'm going to be printing at 140% and will post the results.

john.diamond
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:02 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:06 am

I see Iain volunteered to print at 140% so I'll switch to 135%.

StephenDavies
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby StephenDavies » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:28 pm

LINKS FIXED EVRYONE!

I've made a thermo mesh palm (left) if anyone is interested (thrown together):-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/urblwgm2t6njd ... t.stl?dl=0

I have also created textured finger/thumbtips for plasti-dipped fingers.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/urblwgm2t6njd ... t.stl?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbykpl99q83jn ... 2.stl?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4cj07m7i8qccr ... 1.stl?dl=0

I will be printing this over the weekend, and should be wearing it by monday. :)
Last edited by StephenDavies on Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:43 pm

Stephen, I'd really like to take a look at that thermomesh palm, but it looks like you linked to the thumbtip.

mmcginnis9272
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby mmcginnis9272 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:02 am

I finished the print at 120%. Couple things I noticed. I don't see the file for the wrist pins. Also the files for the fingertip_short_x2 and guntlet_supports_x1 are non-manifold. everything printed just fine. All snap-fit parts worked fine. Now on to stringing everything up.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:05 am

Wrist pin files have been added.

I fixed the manifold problems on the gauntlet. Blender 3D and slic3r both showed it as manifold, but netfabb found where the problems were.

The fingertip_short file is driving me nuts. Like the gauntlet, it shows up as manifold in Blender 3D and in slic3r, but netfabb says it isn't. However, netfabb won't show me where the problem is. I don't see any red polys or verts anywhere. I tried cleaning up the file a bit, but that didn't help.

If I can't figure it out, I'll use netfabb's autofix. I'd rather know where the actual problem was.

mmcginnis9272
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby mmcginnis9272 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:13 am

The link to your thermomesh file is 404 dead.

Can you fix that?

Thanks.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:52 pm

Okay, a new fingertip_short is uploaded now.

StephenDavies
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby StephenDavies » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:14 pm

Jason M Bryant wrote:Stephen, the thermopalm for the Raptor Reloaded will not fit this hand. The shape of the palm is a little different, so I'll have to make a new thermopalm when we're farther along with testing.

Adam, the original post is here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=162

Thanks for all your help, guys.


No worries, Ive incorporated one into the model myself. :)

StephenDavies
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby StephenDavies » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:20 pm

mmcginnis9272 wrote:The link to your thermomesh file is 404 dead.

Can you fix that?

Thanks.



LINKS NOW FIXED! (Sorry about that)

StephenDavies
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby StephenDavies » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:25 pm

Jason M Bryant wrote:Stephen, I'd really like to take a look at that thermomesh palm, but it looks like you linked to the thumbtip.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/urblwgm2t6njd ... t.stl?dl=0

droomurray
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby droomurray » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:37 pm

Printed my test on, hope to finish putting it together at the weekend; including plastic - dip the finger tips.

Love the design, print is straight forward although I always use custom support and need to be careful around the middle knuckles; it took quite a bit of clean up !

2015 - 2.jpg
2015 - 2.jpg (182.74 KiB) Viewed 12358 times

2015 - 1.jpg
2015 - 1.jpg (175.2 KiB) Viewed 12358 times



Drew.

mmcginnis9272
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby mmcginnis9272 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:58 pm

StephanDavies: Is there any way that you can post the thermomesh as a plate that can be screwed in place? This allows me to more easily line the pocket with MoleSkin padding. Also, if the thermomesh gets screwed up while forming, I can just replace it with a new one. Not to mention the fact that I already printed the verison without the mesh and I hate to waste filiment ;>)

Thanks..

mmcginnis9272
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby mmcginnis9272 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:17 pm

120% hand is done. Printed with no extra supports. No issues at all printing. All parts fit together perfectly. While I got the fingers/whippletree adjusted, for the life of me, I cannot figure out how your are supposed to adjust the overall tension on the fingers with the 2 screws. There is no room in the box for the adjuster to move up and down with the screws as the whole thing fills the entire box from one end to the other. Am I missing something?

Initial thoughts:
1. I really like the adaptive grip. This helps grip objects much better.
2. The new angle on the thumb is also a great idea. The thumb on the Raptor reloaded was not nearly as functional as this one.
3. The rubber bands work well, although I only have 1/8 inch bands. These are too tight for this hand and the tips are bending in before the palm joints. I gotta find some larger bands. Other than Amazon, where on earth do you find these dental bands? No luck at CVS or Walgreen's or Walmart. If I have a hard time finding them, won't the recipients also? Am I a dope and just don't know where to get them?
4. I really would like a screw on thermomesh plate. This make it easier to line the pocket with padding and to replace the padding later when it wears out. I already requested this in my last post, so please do not consider me to be wining on this point, but I suppose I am!!!
5. although more appealing to look at, I wonder if the finger base being angled might cause irritation to some hands at the base of the pinkie area. Time will tell on this one.

Overall, great job!!
Attachments
Eagle3.jpg
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Eagle2.jpg
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Eagle1.jpg
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Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:31 am

Good job! That hand looks great. It's cool to know you printed fine without extra supports.

The swivel pin shouldn't be the entire length of the box. It's about 3/4 the length.

DSCF3500.JPG
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That's not nearly as much as the traditional pins, so you have to get the wiring fairly close to start with. You should aim to wire up the hand with the palm at a 30 degree angle and the whippletree flush with the edge of the box. Then the pins just allow for a bit of tightening if it slips a little.

Other than Amazon, I don't know where to find the bands. You wouldn't believe the hassle I've gone through in getting them here in China. I just gave up on getting the 6.5oz bands and settled for the 3.5oz. Some people have used loom bands. I think most people will end up giving their recipients a bunch of bands when they give them the hand.

A screw-on thermomesh plate is definitely one of the additions I plan to work on. I'm waiting to make sure that the design is finalized.

The palm does have slightly less space than the RR where the pinky goes. When we get to recipient testing, that will be a prime concern.

mmcginnis9272
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby mmcginnis9272 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:02 am

Jason M Bryant wrote:Good job! That hand looks great. It's cool to know you printed fine without extra supports.
The swivel pin shouldn't be the entire length of the box. It's about 3/4 the length.


That makes perfect sense now. When I printed the swivel pin it was the same length as the box. I'll cut a bit off the end to allow for adjustment.

I'm not great with CAD but I think I might be able to cut the mesh off the one that was recently uploaded that had the mesh built into the palm. Maybe I can get that to work. And Amazon.... here I come to purchase the correct bands.

Thanks for your input.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:05 am

Could you post a picture of your swivel pin and your box? I'm a little confused about how it can be the same length. It shouldn't be much shorter, but it should be a little shorter.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:07 am

Issue: It's way too hard to remove the knuckle pins.

It wasn't too bad on my 100% test hand, but the 125% hand is painfully hard.

I've got a couple of ideas for how to address this. They won't be quite as pretty, but they shouldn't be too noticeable, either.

jamesdhatch
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:44 pm

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:17 am

mmcginnis9272 wrote:3. The rubber bands work well, although I only have 1/8 inch bands. These are too tight for this hand and the tips are bending in before the palm joints. I gotta find some larger bands. Other than Amazon, where on earth do you find these dental bands? No luck at CVS or Walgreen's or Walmart. If I have a hard time finding them, won't the recipients also? Am I a dope and just don't know where to get them?
Can you not find them on Amazon? I got 1/8" x-heavy, 3/16" heavy, 3/16" x-heavy, 5/16" heavy and 3/8" x-heavy from Amazon (US site). They were only a few bucks for each bag of 100 bands. If you need them and can't get them shipped by Amazon, let me know and I'll see about getting you some and shipping them from here (CT, USA).

Jim

droomurray
Posts: 69
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Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby droomurray » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:24 am

Stephen,

More link chaos; I can't find a link to the ridged long finger.

Drew.

john.diamond
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:02 am

Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:16 am

Here are some observations from my test printing at 135% using an i3xl (RepRap design based on a Prusa i3 with a 12" x 9" heated bed and twin ducted fans on the printhead). I used 0.2mm layers and 3 perimeters.

The first attempt at printing the palm resulted in a layer slippage at an elevation of 31.5mm:
slippage1.png
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slippage2.png
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This slippage would have been the result of a build up of PLA above the print layer with an eventual collision with the nozzle. One of the reasons for the buildup was a partial failure to render the upper sections of the support structure:
support1.png
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support2.png
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I wonder if the support structure could be modified to reduce the risk of a failed rendering where the upper sections begin. A 45' style of slope from the side wall of the support box might help.

For my second attempt at the palm I monitored the progress and manually tamped down the most egregious of the bits that stuck up above the print layer such as this one:
bumps1.png
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The resulting successful print looked like this:
successful_palm1.png
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john.diamond
Posts: 38
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Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:37 am

I've been having problems with print quality resulting in irregularities and roughness on the upper side (lower side during printing) of the finger and thumb tips. This isn't unique to the latest design ... I've had the same problems with the Raptor and Raptor Reloaded as well. I believe I now know what the cause of these problems was and I've found a way to reduce/eliminate them that I'd like to share in case anyone else runs into it. I've been running my heated bed at 65'C to ensure that warpage is minimized especially on big volume prints like the palm. At 65'C the PLA is kept in a softened state. The overhanging portion of the fingertip that's closest to the heated bed had a tendency to curl up while printing:
finger_curl.png
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On occasions this resulted in the printhead depositing its bead of PLA into thin air leading to an erratically bumpy surface. This was most pronounced on the thumptip. When I reduced the bed temperature to 50'C the curling was dramatically reduced as the PLA sets solid rather than staying soft. The before and after effect of dropping the bed temperature from 65'C to 50'C for the thumbtip is shown below:
thumptips.png
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I ran into a similar problem with the phalanx and the snap pins. The symptom of too high a bed temperature for printing a collection of snap pins on a single plate was that one or more pins would become dislodged from the bed during the print resulting in a total loss of all the pins.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The New Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:10 am

For the curling finger problem, I get that as well when I don't use an external fan. I get that a little even though I don't heat my bed at all for PLA. Having a fan with a duct that points at the nozzle improves print quality in a lot of ways, for me it completely solves that problem. I guess the fingers are just more problematic than other parts because of that big slope at the bottom.

For the supports issue, I don't think adding a 45 degree angle will help, at least not consistently among different printers. Right now it's just bridging a small gap, which should work fine. My guess is that the walls are too thin, and the upper sections are not connecting properly to the other walls. Honestly, the fact that you're getting this problem at 135% boggles me. The walls should be plenty thick at that scale.

Perhaps I'm being too clever and I should make all the walls start at the bottom. It will be slightly more filament and print time, but only slightly. The main thing I liked about having the raised sections was that they left a little more space to get the needle nosed pliers in there and rip them out.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:04 pm

At 135% the support walls are one bead of filament thick. The walls on the first generation dental band palm seemed a fraction thicker and held up better. Even though full height support walls take a little more filament and printing time I'd suggest it would be worthwhile to improve the predictability and reliability of printing on some systems.

On the subject of pliers I find that both needle nose and adjustable hinge pliers are invaluable for various printing tasks. The adjustable hinge pliers are particularly good at removing the support structure and for removing the wrist pin caps from the print bed which is where the wider hinge setting comes into its own.
pliers.png
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Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:25 pm

I made the change to the supports, along with another change. I'll do a quick 100% test print tomorrow before I upload it. The real test will be how well it works on your machine, since it already works on mine.

Actually, how about I upload an stl that is just the supports? That way you can test it at 135% and make sure it works without having to reprint an entire hand.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:21 pm

Please go ahead and upload the modified support structure. I'll give it a test printing at 135%.

I've just finished all the printing and can confirm that my best quality fingertips were printed with the heated bed turned off as you suggested.

I'll upload photos of the finished hand ASAP.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:29 pm

Complete instructions have been uploaded. I know everyone here is an experienced user and doesn't need them, but I'd appreciate some proofreading. I tried to make the instructions more streamlined that what I've written in the past, and I want to make sure I didn't leave out something important.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:51 am

John, a new version of just the supports has been uploaded. The file is named support_test.

I'm going to try printing it and the lastest version after lunch. If it works out, I'll upload it after that, so it would be about 24 hours before it's available.

jamesdhatch
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Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:44 pm

Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:19 am

I've made some corrections/edits to help clarify some things (since I'm something of a middlin - neither entirely newbie but not an old hand at this) and formatting to make it easier to read & follow. Feel free to use them (I had the Review function on with Word) or ignore.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tov6yb7eqcjui ... e.doc?dl=0

Or for a PDF version:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4y50zlq5kcnb1 ... e.pdf?dl=0

Great project. Love the changes. A very nice update to the Raptor (Reloaded) version. I'm awaiting my Plasti Dip to finish up my test version. Thanks for all the great work on this one.

Jim

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:47 am

Success! I've finished assembling and stringing the Phoenix (135%) using the new gripper box and a thermoformed gauntlet rather than the traditional version. I've included a couple of photos below and Justine is posting a video that we just made showing how the new design is vastly superior in terms of the way the fingers cooperate to complete the grip when picking up common household items. If all goes well the video should be available in the Research and Development section of the Google+ site shortly.
phoenix1.png
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phoenix2.png
phoenix2.png (699.35 KiB) Viewed 12311 times

Congratulations to Jason on a major step forward in the usability of the e-NABLE hand.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:58 am

I did notice a couple of points that might be worth following up on during the final assembly.

1) My printer had a bit of a struggle forming the roof of the thumb knuckle joint on the palm. The result was that before I scraped it out using a 1/4" chisel the joint didn't move freely.

2) The thumb and pinky finger knuckle pins don't seem very firmly locked in place and are working loose and falling out with use.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:13 am

Thanks, I'll check those joints again.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:34 am

John, I'd like to get a bit more clarification on point 1.

How much trouble did it have? That joint has a rounded lip at the front, then the roof behind it is raised a little higher. Did you have trouble in the lip or in the raised part of the roof?

EDIT: I'm going to take an extra day before I upload the next version. I want to look at the knuckle joints, and I'm pretty much out of steam tonight.

I took a look at the thumb knuckle pin and the joint. They're exactly the same as the Raptor Reloaded. Strangely, there's less room for the thumb knuckle pin to expand than for the finger pins in the RR. So this problem should be happening in the RR, too. Has anyone noticed thumb knuckle pins coming out too easily in the RR? Anyway, I expanded the hole a bit to match the finger joints. I'll take a look at the finger knuckles tomorrow and see if they need the same thing.
Last edited by Jason M Bryant on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:16 pm

I feel like the thumb should come forward a few millimeters. No rotation or anything, just slide the whole thing a bit closer to the fingers.

The thing is, that would require removing one of the Velcro screw holes. I really like those four holes in the bottom, they feel like the most solid way to anchor the Velcro straps.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:11 pm

Regarding the issue I ran into with the thumb knuckle joint, I believe, although can't be 100% sure, that the problem was with the roof of the joint on the palm where there are bridging strands. My printer isn't too clever when it comes to bridging gaps and this could be the reason I had to scrape out the joint afterwards.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:33 pm

I've flattened that area out and raised up the lip at the front a bit. Hopefully that will help.

I love that we're getting different print problems from different people. It's so nice to have several people and test with different machines.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:10 pm

by Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:33 pm

I love that we're getting different print problems from different people. It's so nice to have several people and test with different machines.

Maybe we should put together a list of who is using what kind of printer we're using to help folks know what works well and what ones might cause an issue.

For starters, I'm using a Makerbot Replicator 2X with dual print heads (although I'm just using for this print) and ABS with a heated bed.

Jim

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:23 am

I'm using a Wanhao Duplicator 4x, which is a Makerbot clone.

I'm using slic3r to slice the files.

jamesdhatch
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Plasti Dip Primer

Postby jamesdhatch » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:22 am

I'm finishing up my test fingertips with clear Plasti Dip but couldn't find their primer locally. Checking it out online, it looks like it's mostly Toluene with some Xylene and Ethylbenzene for good measure (but almost 90% toluene). It's often used industrially as a paint thinner. A respirator is recommended, btw.

It's a precursor chemical for a lot of stuff (including some hallucinogenic illegal drugs) but primarily Xylene. But I can't find it locally. So in the absence of a source of Toluene (can't find it locally) has anyone successfully used Xylene which is readily available in places like Home Depot? If no one has, I'll give it a shot anyway and report back this weekend.

TIA

mmcginnis9272
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby mmcginnis9272 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:18 pm

Sorry it has taken me several days to respond. I was the one that had the issue adjusting the wippletree with the adjustment screws because I claimed that the swivel pin was as long as the box and therefor could not be adjusted. Well, once again I proved that a bag of hammers sometimes has more brains than I do. I had an overhang goober in the box that was preventing the swivel pin from going further into the box. So, once removed, all is well.

As to answer the question as to what printer I am using, it is a Kossel 2020 delta printer, homebrew. I had no issues printing (except for the just mentioned goober that needed to be removed from the box.) I wouldn't consider that a design issue at all, just a random side effect of our beloved machines.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:54 pm

V2 now uploaded

Revised Files
-all the versions of the palm
-knuckle pin long
-knuckle pin short

Changes
-Raised and rounded the roof of the thumb joint on the palm
-Increaded hole size for thumb knuckle pin
-added bevel to long and short knuckle pins
-changed slope on palm wrist joint from round to 45 degrees to improve print quality
-Enlarged the holes for removing the thumb pins. They are now the same size as the Raptor Reloaded. The long knuckle pin comes out from the side now, instead of from a hole on the bottom of the palm.
-Reworked the supports on the palm. They go all the way to the floor now, which should reduce print failures. The walls are also repositioned, which should improve the print quality of the palm roof.
-Slightly changed the palm roof, which should also slightly improve print quality of the roof.

Plans for Version 3
I should have the next version up fairly soon. It will have one major change, I'll move the thumb and fingers closer together. This will definitely take some testing, so you might want to wait.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:15 pm

Also, I've updated the instructions. James, thanks a ton for the suggestions and proofreading.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:45 am

I finally got around to printing the full height support test structure and all the walls came out intact. I think this is the correct approach. Thanks Jason. Would you like any test prints of V2 produced or should we wait for V3?

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:51 am

Let's wait for V3. One reason I broke them into two updates is so that if the thumb change goes horribly wrong, I'll have something solid to revert to. V3 is definitely going to need some careful testing.

I'm doing a partial print of it right now to test a joint. If that goes well, I'll print a full palm after class. If *that* goes well, I'll upload the files overnight.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:07 am

I'm very much looking forward to seeing the results. The reaction of the audience at the Monday evening event in New York when Jon showed them the Phoenix was overwhelming.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:28 am

Wait, what?

Tell me more about this event. Is there a post about it somewhere? Are there pictures?

AdamArabian
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby AdamArabian » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:33 am

Just a vote of support Jason for the work you're doing on this hand - I really like its key elements. Great job mobilizing support for the test builds; something we were never able to do!

Keep on keepin' on!

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:51 pm

Hi,

I just discovered this new hand design on e-Nable Google+ community. I can't wait to print the hand out and test the new knuckle joints and the gripper box!

I've got a Rostock Max v2 printer that can print pretty big stuff. If no one is printing the 160% or 170% hand, I'd like to give it a crack! The software I use is Simplify3D, which can generate smart support under the overhangs, so it'll be great to see how well they print on my machine.

From reading through the previous posts, it sounds like you have done quite a lot of work fixing the print files. Hopefully the ones I just downloaded today have no problem at all. :)

Thanks
Sarah

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:19 pm

Cool! I'm very eager to see how the bigger hand turns out. I printed one finger and phalanx at 170%, and I was able to use a rubber band from an office supply store in the joint!

If you're printing with the supports from Simplify3D, I imagine you'll want to use the regular "palm" files instead of "palm_supports". Would you mind flipping it over after it's done and taking a picture of the supports? I'm interested in what kind of automated supports it produces. I've heard good things about the supports from Simplify3D.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:09 pm

Version 3 has been uploaded

However, I haven't had a chance to test more than one finger, and I probably won't be able to fully assemble it for another day or more. So I uploaded the files with a "V3" at the end, but I left the files from version 2. If you want to test v3, great. If you want something that I can swear by, avoid the files that end with V3.

Revised Files

-all the versions of the palm
-finger phalanx
-thumb phalanx

Changes

-Moved the fingers back 1mm
-Moved the thumb forward 4mm
-Rounded off the back ends of the phalanges to give more room

The only change is that the fingers and the thumb are a little closer together now. This should help with the pinch grip to pick up very small items. This should make it so that larger hands hold things without them slipping through the grip as much. This is a little closer to anatomical proportions.

Again, I haven't gotten a chance to assemble the hand yet, so I haven't tested it to see if it actually has these advantages. I only printed one finger phalanx, so I'll print the rest as soon as I can and try it out.

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:57 am

Hi Jason,

I'm printing the gauntlet at 170% right now. It looks fine.

The palm however may be a bit of issue with support structure inside the channels for strings. The shape of the channels has a flat ceiling, which result in support structure to be added in S3D. It's not possible to turn them off and print with bridging... I was wondering if it'll be better if the channels are round in their profile shape, or reverse them to have a flat base and curved ceiling?

Will post photos after I finished printing the parts.

Thanks
Sarah

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:11 am

Originally, the channels were round. They were changed because a flat roof bridges better.

If you can't turn off supports in that area, maybe you should print the files that have built-in supports.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:04 pm

Sarah, to you have Lee Tippi gel grips to put on the hand? I will be stunned if a #3 Tippi grip goes on a 170% thumb.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:04 pm

Version 3 Is Offical

Woo!

I finished the 100% with the new parts. I'm very happy with how it works.

Plans for Version 4

The thermomesh holes on the bottom of the palm currently conflict with the Velcro screw holes.

That's the only issue I'm aware of at the moment. Let me know when you guys find more. I'm going to wait and see if we can collect a few more issues before I publish the next version.

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:28 pm

I got some different sizes from Amazon last year. They're in different colours as well. Will try them out and let you know :)

Sarah

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:09 pm

I've just been given access to the photos from the Monday evening iMakr meetup in New York City. These photos were taken by a member of the audience, Michael Del Rossi, who is a professional photographer. They can be viewed at https://www.behance.net/gallery/27166485/iMakr-meetup-2015 . The purple hand is a 100% scale Raptor Reloaded. The purple/black model is one of Jason's first generation dental band designs printed at 140% scale and the black/grey/blue model is the Phoenix V1 printed at 135%. The way the Phoenix demonstrated its ability to wrap its fingers and thumb around the water bottle got a very positive reaction from the audience. Please keep up the incredible work Jason ... can't wait to get started on printing a Phoenix V3.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:50 pm

V4 now uploaded

Revised Files
-all the versions of the palm

Changes
-Moved the Thermomesh holes so they don't conflict with the Velcro holes
-Fixed some minor geometry errors with the thermomesh holes.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:21 am

Father's Day project - print a hand :-)

Thanks, looking good. You might want to update the text log to reflect June vs July as the month for the updates ;)

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:04 am

Whoops. Typo fixed. Thanks!

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:53 am

So glad I haven't printed the V3 palm yet! I've printed everything else at 170% scale but the palm. Now I can just test print the V4 palm. Great timing! :)

The fingers and thumb are massive at 170% by the way! Will try the fingertip grips when I get back to office again!

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:21 am

Yeah, one of the things that is odd about the hands we make is how truly big the fingers are. I built a hand at about 180% for an adult, and it was a little weird seeing him wear that massive thing. I think we don't notice often because we're usually looking at children. The hands we make for them don't look too big to us because they're still smaller than an adult's hand.

I'm not sure if scaling down the fingers is a good solution, though. The palm has to be as big as it is to go around their natural palm. If we make smaller fingers without reducing the palm, then things will look weird.

It's something I'm continuing to think about.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:10 pm

I did a 165% and ended up scaling the pinky down a little bit. It was too big from an aesthetic standpoint - looked too blocky - but it also was really hard to make a firm grab of things. Scaled down 10% (from the scaled up size) it curls better when the hand closes and is a more natural grip. Oh it does look more proportional too.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:30 pm

That's really interesting, James.

I'm assuming that you made it 10% shorter, but kept it the same in the other two dimensions. Is that correct?

How do you feel that it grips better? You say that it curls better, but I'm not sure what you mean.

Can you post some pictures? I'd love to see a straight on shot of all the fingers, a picture of the hand gripping something with that pinkie, and any other shots you think might be useful.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:34 pm

I'm out of town on business this week but will grab a couple of pics when I get back home this weekend.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:43 pm

Cool, James. Thanks.

By the way, everyone, version 5 is incoming. I'm printing something right now, although it might be another day before I can assemble, test, and upload it.

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm expecting everyone to print out a new hand with every version. For the most part, I just want anyone who prints out a new one to have the latest changes. Ideally I would be lumping a lot of these changes together and not putting out so many incremental versions.

The issue is that I'm leaving the country on Saturday. I'm heading to America and won't be back until the end of the summer. So I only have a few days to print out any changes I make and properly test them. This summer, I'll have to be much slower and more careful, scanning layer in the print preview to look for problems. So I'm trying to get out all the changes as fast as they're made, in case I don't get another chance.

This also means that after Friday, I'll probably be doing a kind of lock on changes. Minor bug fixes shouldn't be a problem this summer. However, things like changing the lengths of fingers won't be possible since I won't be able to personally test them and refine them before committing them. I'll have to see how things go this summer.

Thanks for all your patience and support.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:53 pm

I printed the v4 left palm with supports yesterday evening and wanted to mention an anomaly that I saw on the v1 palm as well. There's a partial hole in the top surface over the thumb tendon channel that I've ringed in blue below:
PhoenixV4a.png
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I would like to mention that the new full height support structure printed perfectly:
PhoenixV4b.png
PhoenixV4b.png (369.82 KiB) Viewed 12422 times


Best wishes for your flight home.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:17 pm

That's really odd. The 3D file shows that there's over almost a millimeter and a half between the wire route and the roof. It's not any thinner there than at any other place over a wire route on the roof.

I'm not seeing anything like that on my prints. I do see some tiny gaps at certain angles, but that's consistent with other things I've printed using slic3r. It routinely has problems printing at certain slopes.

What slicing software are you using?

Is anyone else seeing holes like this?

By the way, the gold is pretty swanky. :-)

Justin Lavigueure
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Justin Lavigueure » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:41 am

Hello Jason, greetings from Seattle Pacific University!

I'm an undergraduate mechanical engineering student working on an internship with Dr. Arabian this summer, and I'm interested in using the Phoenix Hand as a baseline model for one of our projects. Specifically I will be brainstorming and prototyping some vocational adaptations for use with our 3D printed hands to aid people in performing certain jobs and tasks like working with farm implements and other tools.

With the help of some of my fellow interns we've just finished printing and assembling a 145% scale V2 hand on a Printrbot simple metal (Barely fits!). I think it looks great but this is my first printed hand, so I'll let the community be the judge:

Phoenix Hand V2 145% (1).jpg
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Phoenix Hand V2 145% (2).jpg
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Phoenix Hand V2 145% (3).jpg
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Phoenix Hand V2 145% (4).jpg
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The .stl files were sliced with Cura and we used the Cura built in supports for the palm and gauntlet. It turned out a bit rough but we managed to sand it down to a comfortable smoothness.

The combination of the whippletree mechanism, dental bands on the fingers, and thumb positioning are great features of this design. We had a bit of trouble stringing the whippletree and positioning it within the box but it worked out well in the end. One suggestion for improvement we discussed was the possibility of making all the fingers the same type so that spare fingers could be more easily distributed without the need for specifying short or long sizes. This also might make it easier for people who won't have regular contact with a maker to do their own repairs if fingers are universal. Perhaps where the phalanx attaches to the palm on the pointer and pinky fingers could be moved back to accommodate having all the fingers be the same size? I'm not sure if that would effect the grasp or look too much though, it's just another thing to consider.

Thank you for your hard work on this design, we are very excited to be a part of it and support you with its evaluation! Is it possible we could get access to the blender files anytime soon? I'm trying to create an attachment mechanism that would snap on under the hand for the different tool adaptations I'm working on. First I'm going to try without any modifications to the hand and just design around it, but if I can't get it to stay on too well it may be easier to just add a slot for the attachment mechanism to snap into. Thank you again and safe travels!

Justin Lavigueure

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:55 am

Hi Justin.

The Raptor Classic has different finger sizes and the Raptor Reloaded has all the same size. So I understand that there is an advantage of simplicity in only having one finger size. However, I don't think having a long and a short size is much more complicated or difficult. Since the hand ends up in a roughly anatomical shape, we shouldn't have many people putting the fingers in the wrong places. Printing out one more type of part isn't very hard.

Moving the attachment point for the fingers has its own problems. It would require changing the shape of the interior space where the recipient's palm goes. Currently, the shape is based on the design of the Flexy Hand, which has gotten a fair amount of testing. We haven't tested this particular hand with any recipients yet, so I want to see how well it works before I do anything radical. There's also the problem of getting the knuckle pins in. The pinkie is significantly lower than the ring finger, so that leaves room for the knuckle pin. The index finger would not be lowered that much, so it wouldn't be able to share a pin with the middle finger, but it also wouldn't be low enough to let a pin just for the middle finger slide past.

I want to make sure the design has stabilized before I put up the blender files. If I am still making changes as people start tinkering, there ends up being a lot of different versions spread out on the net. This design is still in the early experimental stages, so let's wait a bit for this kind of add-ons.

Thanks for the support. I'm glad to hear that you like it and hear your feedback.

What size dental bands did you use?

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:47 am

V5 now uploaded

Revised Files
-all the versions of the palm
-thumb and finger phalanges

Changes
-Moved the thumb joint on the palm inward a little bit
-Removed a thermomesh hole that was covered by the thumb
-Minor cosmetic changes to the phalanges so they'll print better. 45 degree angles instead of rounded edges.

Plans
This is it for a little while. Unless someone posts something relatively simple that needs to be changed by Thursday, I'm not going to have time to make more changes.

During the summer, I'm going to be much more conservative about making changes. I can still make changes, I'll just have to be more careful about it and then rely on you guys to test the changes.

We *might* be close to something that experienced recipients can test. Let's see how this stage of testing goes over the next week or two.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Justin, your print quality looks excellent. Even the gauntlet seems to be crisply printed with no obvious problems on the Velcro strap slots. I also like you color scheme.

Justin Lavigueure
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Justin Lavigueure » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:55 pm

Good point with the fingers Jason, I didn't consider how moving the connections would effect the fitting space and pins. I think that for my internship we will try working with the Flexy Hand since it's been tested a bit more. We used 3/8" extra heavy dental bands, more because that was what we had available than to preference. Here a picture of them:

Phoenix Elastic Bands.jpg
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Thank you for the feedback on the print John. We think that lowering the print temp to 205 for PLA may have helped the bridge strength. Other than that we used a layer height of 0.2 and a print speed of 40mm/s on a Printrbot simple metal. Looking forward to working more with you all in the future!

Justin

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:02 pm

Jason, you asked how I was slicing ... I use slic3r with a 0.2mm layer height, 3 layers top and bottom and 3 perimeters. I've been able to improve my print qualities recently by dropping by bridging speed from 60mm/s to 40. I've also found the cooling setting that allows the fan to run full blast for all but the first layer which helps in many/most cases.

AdamArabian
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby AdamArabian » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:26 pm

Jason - Just to clarify on Justin's point on the finger length, the big thing for us is field maintainability. We are focused on developing world communities so an ongoing relationship and proximity to repair parts cannot be assumed. It may make our needs too "special case" but our thought is to standardize all fingers as the same length (which, in reality, the fingers of your hand are within a very small percent error - surprising but true!) so that we can provide say four spare fingers which can be used to repair any finger which breaks, not just the ones that are that specific size. If you look at the falcon hand its what we did there.

Perhaps we make that a possible variant or something. I suppose there is nothing that would prevent that from happening, right?

In general I worry about the maintainability of the design. If a string breaks this bad boy is going to be a pain for someone in the field to fix. This is something that we're spending some time on as well for your review and consideration.

I genuinely love this hand. I think its a huge improvement over existing designs.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:22 pm

Well, if someone wants to use only the long fingers, that's easy enough. Long and short have the same joints and pins, so there's no mechanical difference at all. We can keep the two different lengths of fingers, but anyone who only wants to use the long fingertips can do that.

Consider the short fingertips to be optional.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:25 pm

John, you're using the same slicer as me with the same settings. I have no idea why you're getting a little hole in a place where I'm not. I'm a little stumped by this one.

Adaptive Designs
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Adaptive Designs » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:22 am

v4 printed on an SLS printer at 150%, will finish assembly and move on to the v5 prints and assembly. Parts are nylon DuraForm PA material.

Cheers,

Chris
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Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:59 am

Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:53 am

That looks great, Chris.

I'm guessing that at 150%, you'll do fine with 3/8 bands for the palm knuckles and 5/16 bands for the fingertip knuckles. Let us know how that goes.

The biggest hand I've made is 125%. At that scale, 3/8 and 5/16, worked, but they didn't keep the fingertips straight while gripping. I had to switch to 5/16 and 1/4.

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:57 am

I'm rather reluctant to post these photos because I think I had too much support materials printed in the gauntlet and palm...and I think the resistors inside the hotend is slowly dying, which made the temperature fluctuate a bit during printing. Looks like I'm going to spend some time cleaning up these parts for sure!

Palm and Gauntlet
Printer: Rostock Max v2
Slicer: Simplify3D
Resolution: 250 microns
Infill: 35%
Speed: 3200mm/min
Support: I printed 2 palms, one with S3D generated support and another with built-in support by Jason.
IMG_8014.jpg
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IMG_8015.jpg
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IMG_8016.jpg
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Fingers and Pins
Printer: UP Plus
Slicer: UP
Resolution: 250 microns
Infill: Semi-solid
Speed: Normal
IMG_8018.jpg
IMG_8018.jpg (51.98 KiB) Viewed 12461 times

john.diamond
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:02 am

Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:18 pm

I've printed the Phoenix V4 at 135% using the following printer configuration:

I3XL (from DIY Tech Shop ... Based on Prusia i3 with 12" x 9" heated bed)
slic3r using 0.2mm layers, 3 layers top and bottom and 3 perimiters, 35% honeycomb fill

I replaced the gauntlet with a thermoformed alternative and also replaced the wrist pins to accommodate it:

Wrist pin: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:890794
Thermoformed gauntlet: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:864030

IMG_1714.JPG
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IMG_1711.JPG
IMG_1711.JPG (116.57 KiB) Viewed 12441 times


I successfully printed the "official" whippletree and swivel pin but produced alternatives that don't require them to be held together by wire/thread.
IMG_1710.JPG
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whippletree_and_pin_JD1.png
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I've uploaded the STL files as attachments for these prototypes for your review and comments.
Attachments
whippletree_JD1.stl
(504.03 KiB) Downloaded 44 times
swivel_pin_left_JD1.stl
(182.64 KiB) Downloaded 40 times

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:21 pm

The only significant issue I had with the V4 was the thumb knuckle pin and hole in the phalanx. When first inserted the pin clip end got crushed and the joint was stiff. I drilled out the hole and the thumb now moves freely. I know there's a new version of the phalanx designs in V5 so I'll give those a try as well as the new palm.

Jason M Bryant
Posts: 198
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:36 pm

That's a very interesting whippletree variant. I'm a little worried about how thin it is at the back. Hopefully it doesn't break. Besides that, the main thing to test is whether the whippletree swivels as much as the regular version.

If it does work, then the swivel pin could actually be shortened. That would give it more space inside the box, giving more room for adjustment. Alternatively, the box could also be shortened, making it even smaller.

Keep us posted on your results.

I actually have another idea for a whippletree design that I'd love to try out, I just haven't had time. I'll probably get a prototype going in the fall.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:54 am

Dental Band Update

I've edited the first post in this thread. Now the chart with everyone's names and hand sizes also has the dental band sizes.

As people start getting dental bands and testing to see what is the best size, please post here so I can update the chart.

What To Look For

There are two important factors when picking the right size dental bands for your hand.

1) Do they fit snugly on the posts? I've found that if they fit and are tight enough to not fall off, then they will be tight enough to return the fingers to the open position.

2) Do the fingertips stay straight until the palm knuckles meet resistance?

straight fingertips.jpg
straight fingertips.jpg (49.52 KiB) Viewed 12576 times


This is what makes the fingers wrap around object semi-intelligently. It might be that the bands all fit, but they don't keep the fingertips straight.

Basically, you want the largest knuckle bands that will fit snugly, then the largest fingertip bands that will keep the fingers straight.

john.diamond
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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:02 am

Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:03 am

On my 135% Phoenix I use 6.5oz bands and I'm finding that 3/8" bands on the knuckles and 5/16" on the finger/thumb tips work as you describe. The fingers/thumb stay straight until either the phalanx reaches the limits of their travel before the tips start bending.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:56 am

Thanks, John. It's logged.

AdamArabian
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby AdamArabian » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:08 am

John I like the simplification of the whippletree. I don't see a "results" report - did it work?

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:20 am

My modified whippletree and swivel pin assembly seems to be working well. It's behavior seems indistinguishable from the original version ... just without the added assembly step of lacing the two together with wire/cord.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:03 am

I love it. I can't wait to try it... in September. :(

john.diamond
Posts: 38
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:15 pm

I've successfully printed the Phoenix V5 design (new palm and finger/thumb phalanx designs). There were no printing problems worth noting. Once again, I used the STRAP thermoformed gauntlet instead of the Phoenix version. The scale factor was 135% and all the printing parameters were as before with the exception that I've now got the twin ducted printhead fans configured to run continuously after the initial layer is printed which helps with the print quality and reliability. I also had no problems with the thumb knuckle pin which had been troublesome on previous versions:
IMG_1724.JPG
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IMG_1728.JPG
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The whippletree and swivel pin within the gripper box were my own version based on Jason's original design. The swivel pin was as previously posted but I've updated and attached a new STL for the whippletree that fills in the unnecessary holes at the back:
whippletree_JD2.png
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I took the version of the demo grip that had been published for the Raptor Reloaded and adjusted it to fit the Phoenix V5 palm and have attached its zipped STL file. Note that this is useful when someone with a full (or thereabouts) set of fingers is demonstrating how the Phoenix operates.

Here's a shot of the Phoenix grasping a hairdryer which would be been a bit of a challenge using earlier designs:
FullSizeRender.jpg
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Attachments
Phoenix Demo Grip Left.zip
(176.59 KiB) Downloaded 44 times
whippletree_JD2.stl
(448.46 KiB) Downloaded 42 times

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:41 pm

I did a print of the latest design this weekend (including the original gripper box) using the thermoform strap gauntlet at 115%. I had issues with the thumb coming out badly formed until I switched to the original dental band thumb, reduced print speeds and printed using the Makerbot's "supports" feature (which didn't result in any supports being added though). I was getting layer shift and really dodgy print quality on the angled thumbtip - something I've not gotten with either the RR or the original dental band version of the RR. I'll post the rubber band sizes I used so we can get those added to the spreadsheet.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:30 pm

There's little to no difference between the dental band thumbtip and the current thumbtip. Certainly not in the area that would affect printing. Reducing print speeds is probably the biggest thing that helped.

The fingertips and thumb tips are definitely a little more tricky to print than the Raptor Classic or Raptor Reloaded fingers. With the RC, I could print an okay (not great, but okay) fingertip without external cooling. With these fingers, the fan has to be on or it comes out terrible.

The problem is that the fingertips are at a 33 degree angle, and printers hate anything that's less than a 45 degree angle. It's actually the same angle as the RC and RR fingers, but the fingers being more rounded seems to exacerbate the problem. Since you're hand is at 115%, it's probably more noticeable than at the larger sizes.

Maybe I can tweak it a bit. I'm not sure how much.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:41 pm

Jason, thanks for thinking about this. I had no problems whatsoever with either the earlier dental band version at 100% or the fingers on the Phoenix at 115% (or Raptor & Raptor Reloaded at 165%). The only part that came out badly was the thumb and I reprinted it 8 times over the past few days - with other parts & pieces in between so It doesn't seem to be a blanket alignment or head issue with the Makerbot. That's what's most frustrating - otherwise I'd be able to tweak the printer (I did try a bed releveling to no effect). I'll keep plugging away. I'm going to try to use the Versa-tool to smooth it a bit as well.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:43 pm

James, I've added two files to the dropbox.

fingertip_straight_test
thumbtip_straight_test

Would you mind testing them at your original settings, the ones that had the most trouble?

The differences are pretty minor. The angle is less rounded at the base, which hopefully will make the layers after that a little more secure. The slope is also slightly straighter. It's not quite as pretty, but it should be a little more print friendly.

If they come out better, would you mind also trying them at 100%?

I don't have access to my printer for the next couple of months, so I can't test them myself. Let me know any other opinions you have about them, like how they look or if there are other issues.

If this is an improvement, I'll also do the same thing for the short version of the fingertip.

Thanks.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:16 am

Spot on changes! Back to printer defaults and the new tips print normally at both 100 & 115% first try. I don't think the differences in shape/look would be noticeable to anyone without the original next to it to compare. The top of the tip (the underside when printed as they print upside down) is a bit wavy but the layers are all intact and it's certainly smoothable with a bit of heat from the Versa-tool. It's not like the failed parts where the layers were threaded and distinct enough at the outside of the layer that I could actually lift with a fingernail and peel off.

Also the back end is 100% better - no issues getting them to attach properly to the knuckles & pins. The failed parts were a wicked mess. See the photos below for the good/bad/ugly.

IMG_20150630_204658.jpg
New tips - tops
IMG_20150630_204658.jpg (1.16 MiB) Viewed 12546 times
You can see the striations on the finger tops but they're structurally sound and only need some post-printing heat finishing.



IMG_20150630_204729.jpg
New tips - undersides
IMG_20150630_204729.jpg (1.25 MiB) Viewed 12546 times
Here you can see the underside of the new fingertips - absolutely no structural problems or issues with size of the cord channels or pin holes. Very clean overall.



IMG_20150630_204819.jpg
Previous version - tops
IMG_20150630_204819.jpg (1.24 MiB) Viewed 12546 times
These are the originals - just a hot mess. The finger tops look almost molten. Formation of the layers was inconsistent and not cohesive. Threads are visibly & physically separated in places.



IMG_20150630_204934.jpg
Previous version - side view
IMG_20150630_204934.jpg (1.06 MiB) Viewed 12546 times
Here you can see more detail from the sides. Just an incoherent mess. The ends & pin holes just are not consistently formed. Layer separation is apparent.



IMG_20150630_204858.jpg
Previous version - full side
IMG_20150630_204858.jpg (1.09 MiB) Viewed 12546 times
Full side view of the previous version. The layers don't transition well and that led to slippage/misalignment of successive layers.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:22 am

Holy cow, that's a huge difference!

I really thought I was making such a minor change that it wouldn't matter much. Okay, I learned something new about designing to be printed.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:14 pm

Okay, I added a new fingertip_short with the same type of changes. I also renamed the test files to be the default files. So anyone who gets the fingers from this point on should have something that prints more consistently.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:28 pm

Great. I'll run a test of the fingers tonight.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:58 pm

Thanks. The only one you need to check is the fingertip_short, since you've already printed the others.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:24 pm

Yep. I'll do them at some different sizes to make sure they're good small to large.

BTW, does anyone ever go smaller than 100%?

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:14 pm

I don't think so. What I've heard is that 100% is about right for a three-year-old. Since we don't even recommend using the hands before a child is at least four, there's no need for anything smaller.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:08 am

I'm printing a series of both long and short fingertips at 100, 115, 125, 150% to see how they come out at various sizes. 3hrs projected print time for 8 fingertips. I need a faster printer :D

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:24 pm

Call for Info

Hi guys.

We're getting close to the next stage of testing. Before we move on to looking for recipients, I'd really like to collect as much information as possible on how this went and write up a report.

I've added a new column to the haphazard spreadsheet on the first page: Results. I looked through the thread and noted who has reported that they successfully printed and assembled their hands as well as who got them completely strung up.

Please take a look at the first post and see if your information is recorded accurately. We're still missing some information from some people.

What We Need

-Did it print and assemble correctly?
-Did it work fine once it was strung up?
-What size dental bands did you use?
-If you are printing a large hand, what size Lee Tippi gel grips did you need?

If you don't have all of this information, please post what you have.

Thanks again, everyone. You've been incredibly helpful.

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:29 pm

I've printed the fingertips that I downloaded on 6/22 at 135% and 145% and the Lee Tippi size 3 fit well on both.
On the topic of finger tip printing problems I ran an experiment to overcome some issues that encountered yesterday trying to print a short fingertip at 145%. I was using a reel of filament with a different color to ones used previously although from the same supplier. My first attempt printed at 175'F had an imperfection on the long sloping overhang during printing. I raise the nozzle temperature to 185'F for the second attempt but that seemed to exacerbate the defect. For the third attempt I lowered the temperature back to 175'F and also lowered the feed rate to 75% of my normal settings which resulted in a print quality that I'm happy with. Note that I suspect that my thermocouple is reading low so the actual temperature is probably a few degrees higher than measured.
I'm printing on a I3XL which is derived from a Prusa i3 RepRap design. The layer height is 0.2mm with 3 perimeters and 3 layers top and bottom with a 35% honeycomb fill. The nozzle diameter is 0.4mm .
Fingers.png
Fingers.png (998.15 KiB) Viewed 12546 times

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:50 pm

Good stuff. Those errors look similar to what I got on the Raptor Classic and Raptor Reloaded fingers before I attached an external fan pointed at the nozzle. That's about the best we can do with fingers that print at a 33 degree slope.

Thanks for the thorough testing.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:04 pm

john.diamond wrote:I've printed the fingertips that I downloaded on 6/22 at 135% and 145% and the Lee Tippi size 3 fit well on both.
On the topic of finger tip printing problems I ran an experiment to overcome some issues that encountered yesterday trying to print a short fingertip at 145%.
John - did you try printing with the new ones Jason uploaded on the 29th? (He replaced them all yesterday with a new final version.)

I did prints yesterday at 100/115/125/150 and all were good. I'll post a couple of pictures tonight. I did both the small and long fingertips.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:40 pm

Here are what eight nice fingertips look like. Small and long in two groups - 100%/115%/125%/150% left to right. Printed on a MakerBot Replicator 2X with ABS, 2 shells, 35% hex infill, no supports, 0.2mm layer height.


IMG_20150702_072240.jpg
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IMG_20150702_072303.jpg
IMG_20150702_072303.jpg (1.12 MiB) Viewed 12540 times

IMG_20150702_072313~2.jpg
IMG_20150702_072313~2.jpg (688.26 KiB) Viewed 12540 times

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:46 pm

I've got another demo hand to print after this one so I'll try the new fingertip designs to see how I get on with them.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:22 pm

My test hand is done. 115%. Used 1/4" bands on the knuckles and 5/16" ones on the fingertips. Also used the thermoformed gauntlet. With the 1" strap mod.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:52 pm

That sounds reversed. Are you sure you don't mean 5/16" bands on the knuckles and 1/4" ones on the fingertips?

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:26 pm

Well okay if you want to get technical :D :D You are correct.

In my defense I was up late waiting on the results of the first leg of this year's Iron Butt Rally. :shock:

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:15 pm

No worries. :D

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:27 am

John, how did printing the new fingers go? Did you try them with your original printer settings to see if the problems were better?

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:30 pm

I've just started printing another 145% Phoenix and will download and use the latest fingertips and report back.

Justin Lavigueure
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Justin Lavigueure » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:27 pm

Hello everyone,

I put size 3 Lee Tippi gel grips on the 145% V2 Phoenix with original fingers. They fit but seem stretched a bit, it would probably be preferable to go up a size for this scale but I only have size 3 to test at the moment.

Phoenix Lee Tippi Size 3 (1).jpg
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Phoenix Lee Tippi Size 3 (2).jpg
Phoenix Lee Tippi Size 3 (2).jpg (908.81 KiB) Viewed 12603 times


Thanks,
Justin Lavigueure

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:26 pm

Nicely done. Perhaps we should recommend a larger size starting at 145%. I'd like to wait until someone tests a larger size before I add that to the instructions.

Peregrine Hawthorn
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Peregrine Hawthorn » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:43 pm

I haven't tried this hand in particular, but on my 160% Talon, I prefer to use size 3 tips, because they cling to the fingers better. The sizing is based around fitting on squishy fingers with circulation and sweat glands, but 3D printed fingers are none of those.
Heavy duty hand user, and co-designer of the Talon.

I break hands and then tell you how I did it.

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:21 pm

I did a 165% that's sitting at home but used the clear Plasti-Dip. I can try the Tippis when I get back (I'm on a business trip this week). I believe I have size 3s but may have a variety pack that has other sizes as well. I like the Plasti-Dip though as it's pretty easy to use and the can isn't very expensive but can coat a ton of fingertips. I dipped to just before where the groove starts for the elastic channel. I'll post the Tippis result this weekend.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:57 pm

Peregrine, the big issue is the thumb. The thumb on the Phoenix is much bigger than the other fingers. I will be shocked if a #3 Tippi fits on a 165% Phoenix thumb.

gabemedina23
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby gabemedina23 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:19 pm

I printed a phoenix at 100%, some of the small things I noticed, and I've already talked to you about this Jason, some of the pins in the knuckles were not fitting inside the socket completely. The sides of the short ends of the head of each pin is what gave me the most trouble. I have put the 3D printed parts together, the dental bands and used Spiderwire stealth-braid 65 lbs fishing line. I haven't put anything else on as of yet. I did however try to put the loom rubber-bands on the hand and did not like them at all(for the 100% size). Even after doubling and tried to triple them and they are just too big.

GreggDennison
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Location: Falmouth, KY
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby GreggDennison » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:07 am

Jason, are you ready for me to print this out for Luke? If it's sized like a RR, he'll need a 130%. Is there a thermomesh palm ready to print with this also?

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:29 am

I'm talking with Melina and John about opening this up for recipient testing. Melina says to wait, but I don't think it will be much longer. As soon as we're ready, I'll make a big announcement and make sure to tag you in it.

Stephen Davies made a thermoform palm, but that was for version 1, and I'd rather people not use that. I don't know if he's updated it. Stephen?

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:32 pm

I've attached a ZIP containing the redesigned whippletree and swivel pin components that I've been using. Note the there's a little bit of support structure that needs to be trimmed off the swivel pin before it can be used.
Attachments
whippletree_JD.zip
Redesigned whippletree and swivel pin
(49.89 KiB) Downloaded 56 times

gabemedina23
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby gabemedina23 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:29 am

Finished stringing up 100% works great. I printed and strung up the 105% works awesome. Pins however I'm having the same issue with sanding the heads down to get them to fit all except the fingertip pin. Is anyone else having this issue? I'm currently printing at 125%. I really like this design it's smart all the choices that were made turned out to be pretty good. Thanks Jason!

Oh and i tried printing 105% 13 hours and 125% 19 hours as full plates. at 125% 1 of the phalanx fell off right at the end everything else printed flawless.

Jpc5829
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jpc5829 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:36 am

Jason, I will try the 105% print. Thank you.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:16 am

Okay, I've added you to the list.

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:18 am

170% thumb with size 3 fingertip grip. Seemed to fit fine even though I had to stretch it a bit.

Will assemble the hand this weekend. Sorry for the delay. Got side tracked by too much work!

Sarah
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Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:06 pm

Wow, that's really stretchy.

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:42 am

Finally I have finished assembling the Phoenix hand at 170%!!

The instructions were very clear, so I had no trouble putting together the whippletree tensioner. However, the hand was so big and heavy that I found it rather difficult to operate. Perhaps the elastic bands I used were too tight or the strings through the palm were too loose. Either way, the hand felt a bit clunky at this size. Other than that, great design! I really liked the rubber bands on the knuckles. I couldn't find any dental bands, so I used the cheap loom bands and looped around quite tight.

The fingertip grips I used were size 3.

Here are some photos of the finished hand.

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Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:46 pm

You can find dental bands online. There are links to amazon pages where you can buy them in the instructions parts list. The idea is to get the size that is just barely tight enough to pull the fingers back up to the straight position.

Scott Darrow
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Scott Darrow » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:49 pm

[quote="Idea Beans"]Finally I have finished assembling the Phoenix hand at 170%!!

The instructions were very clear, so I had no trouble putting together the whippletree tensioner. However, the hand was so big and heavy that I found it rather difficult to operate. Perhaps the elastic bands I used were too tight or the strings through the palm were too loose. Either way, the hand felt a bit clunky at this size. Other than that, great design! I really liked the rubber bands on the knuckles. I couldn't find any dental bands, so I used the cheap loom bands and looped around quite tight.


Idea Beans,
What type of tensioner line did you use on this hand? It looks very large in diameter.

Idea Beans
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Idea Beans » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:42 am

HI Scott, I bought the cords from our local hardware store. I think they're just normal nylon strings which comes in 1.5mm, 2.5mm or 3.5mm size.

GreggDennison
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby GreggDennison » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:49 pm

I'm so trying to make one for a Maker Faire demo at 170%. I'm going to theme it after the Cincinnati Bengals colors, complete with logo. I've printed all the orange on my Delta Orion but can't fit the palm or gauntlet on that machine at that size. I'll have to use the UM2, but ran out of black! :(

The woes of 3d printing....

Scott Darrow
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Scott Darrow » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:54 am

I have finally printed the 130% hand for the testing. Everything printed, and assembled very well. I used 3/8" bands from proximal to palm, and 5/16" bands from proximal to distal phalange, and seemed to work fine. Instructions were clear to me on how this hand goes together

I only have a few suggestions.

1. The print time was very long it seemed, and maybe this can be shortened up a little by adjusting the support structure under the palm. I was thinking about if only the outline of the box was hitting the build plate, and about half way up more, start the intermediate parts of the structure coming out at a 45 degree angle. really only need the top structure to be all connected right before it reaches the top. This would also free up some room to print some of the small parts inside the palm. I know this does not have anything to do with the function of the hand, just thought I would mention it.

2. When using the gripper box, the screw holes are towards the bottom and ended up interfering with the retention clip going all the way on because of hitting screw heads. I ended up shortening the clip 2 mm on the 145% hand I did for my daughter, but did not get a chance yet to do the same for the 130% hand. It is sticking out a little bit, and might catch on something.

These are minor things that I noticed. Great hand Jason!!

Scott

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:30 am

1) This is how the support material was initially done. It printed fine on my machine, but had problems on someone else's. It's such a small part of the build time that it didn't seem worth the trouble.

2) That's unusual. Could you post of picture of the gauntlet so that I can see how the screws are interfering with the clip?

Thanks for testing!

Ianadan
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Ianadan » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:14 am

Guys

How far away are we from recipient testing? I'm due to meet up with Isabella soon for a revision on the hand she's had for 6 months and this looks like it would do the job nicely.

Let me know

Thanks
Ian

Jason M Bryant
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Jason M Bryant » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:44 am

We're actually doing recipient testing now. The feedback isn't through the forums, so it isn't as visible.

I haven't received the first round of feedback yet, so I'm not sure what the timeline is. I'll let you know when I know more.

Ianadan
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Ianadan » Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:14 pm

Any update on this, or should I just take the latest version and feedback any results?

Thanks
Ian

asipola
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby asipola » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:59 pm

Hi,
Did anyone manage to make a screw-on version of the thermomesh palm for the phoenix hand? That would be really cool!

Cheers

droomurray
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby droomurray » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:04 pm

I have not seen a screw on version but here is the version myself and Stephen Davies use.

https://github.com/paybakuk/My-Modded-e ... er/Phoenix

john.diamond
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby john.diamond » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:29 am

Here's my design for a thermoformed palm mesh that can be attached to the latest version of the Phoenix palm using small countersink head sheet metal screws. For a 125% palm I used 3/8" #4 screws. For a 140% palm I used 1/2" #6 screws. This is a right hand palm so you'd need to produce a mirror image for the left palm. If anyone wants the OpenSCAD source file send me an email at john.diamond@verizon.net as I can't figure out how to attach it to this post.
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don n
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby don n » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:25 am

Hi Jason - I have fabricated a few fully assembled Raptor hands and a number of parts kits for Melina. Your Phoenix hand sounds very appealing and I wonder if you think it ready for a "just follow the instructions" volunteer like myself. I have downloaded the files from your Drop Box and am willing to give it a try if you think that would be productive. - don n

Nicholas Hall
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Nicholas Hall » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:36 am

I'm obviously a bit late to comment on this hand, but this design is simply brilliant for the multitude of reasons highlighted above. Incredible work! Your contributions over the last year are astonishing.

dwardio
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby dwardio » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:54 pm

Hi Jason — as many other have said, this is an excellent design, and I'm glad to see the excitement that it's brought to the community.

I just finished printing one at 110% on my UM2. The print came out almost perfect, but the supports are giving me a bit of bother. I recently modified my UM2 with the new Ollson heater block, allowing me to print with different size nozzles beyond the default 0.4mm version. The issue seems to be the thickness of the walls in the support structure – they are too thin for the slicer to handle correctly when prepping files for 0.6mm or 0.8mm nozzle diameters. Actually, my UM2 is tuned to the point that the gauntlet and palm print pretty well without the supports (just some minor droops when bridging the palm and gauntlet), but I'd like to optimize the build plates for the larger nozzles, which print significantly faster and seem to be stronger than those produced at 0.4mm.

Looking through the source files included in the Dropbox link, I'm not seeing the supports in the Blender files. The STL files have the support, but they seem to import as a single object. What I'd like to do is thicken the support walls without modifying the hand in any way — could you please share how they were created, or even the support models themselves?

Anticipating one potential follow-up question, I've successfully re-sliced my Raptor and Raptor Reloaded build plates for 0.6mm and they print fine. It's just the supports for the Phoenix palms and gauntlets that aren't making the cut (so to speak).

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice!

Cheers, Dennis

jamesdhatch
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jamesdhatch » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:58 pm

@dwardio - are you having problems printing the hand or with the leftovers after you've removed the supports? If it's the latter, I do a bit of post-print cleanup using a hot stamping iron to smooth the remnants of the cut outs. If it's the former, can you use the unsupported version and have your slicer software add supports? I use a Makerbot Rep2X and did that with early versions of the gauntlets before Jason added the supports in the file.

dwardio
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby dwardio » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:20 pm

@jamesdhatch - good suggestions, here's what I've tried so far:

Cura - Adds way too much support and lacks a way to edit them.
Simplify 3D - Super easy supports, but does not allow export as STL (gcode & proprietary factory files only).
Meshmaker - Excellent organic support creation and editing, but exceedingly hard to place support bases where desired.

My goal is to create optimized single build plates where the pins and other "fiddly bits" are tucked under the supports. Much easier if the bases are lined up.

Hmm... Maybe I can create supported versions in S3D, save them as gcode, then import into Meshmixer and then out as STLs. Well, it's something to try.

Thanks, D

joecross
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby joecross » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:57 pm

Does anyone have a screw-on mesh palm for left hand and/or an integrated mesh palm for the right hand? I have the other ones, but don't trust myself in Fusion to do a simple mirror.

JustinM
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby JustinM » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:03 am

Anyone in Canada printed one of these? Im finding it impossible to find the screws needed. Anyone putting hardware kits together?

colinp
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby colinp » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:39 pm

Hey JustinM, I am in Canada and am working to put kits together for this.

I am running into an issue where I can't break the supports away. I have tried pulling it out from different sections on the support piece but rather than popping out, the lines of the square are breaking on me. Anyone have any ideas how to avoid this?
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Anya
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby Anya » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:58 pm

Hello!
I would like to try to print and mount one of these. My printer is not so big so I can probably print 100% or 105%.
I have black and white PLA and lime green ABS. What material should I use?
Thank you,
Anya

lizaraujo
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby lizaraujo » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:02 am

JustinM wrote:Anyone in Canada printed one of these? Im finding it impossible to find the screws needed. Anyone putting hardware kits together?


Justin, in the US I have just bought the screws at http://boltdepot.com/. They are not expensive and they have all the types needed. I had paid less than $6 for shipping of 200 screws. I'm not sure if they ship to Canada, but you can check with them. They have email and a toll free number that may work from Canada.

My 13-year-old son and I are currently printing a 140% right Phoenix on a UM2. Let's see how the print goes.

Liz.

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GrandPaul
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby GrandPaul » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:04 pm

Fantastic R&D / Beta thread.

Thanx to everyone who contributed.
Paul Zuniga
I approve this message

joecross
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby joecross » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:30 pm

We were able to deliver two Unlimbited arms during our recent trip to e-NABLE Ghana. The arm uses the Phoenix hand as the terminal device and we were able to get some useful feedback on its performance in this environment.

Pros
- Grip is good
- Plastidip adhered well and provided good tackiness

Cons
- The elastics began to break down VERY quickly. We used orthodontic-grade elastic bands. It appears that the heat and humidity are not friendly to these things.
- The local recipients preferred the Flexy hand design over the Phoenix. It is primarily an aesthetic issue - they want the device to be as natural as possible, even at the cost of grip performance. Our e-NABLE volunteer in Nigeria, Umar, reported the same feedback.

Conclusion
For Ghana and Nigeria, the Phoenix hand/Unlimbited arm is less desirable than the Flexy hand/arm. The recipients that received the Unlimbited arms were happy to have them, but they specifically asked for a Flexy arm to replace it.

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joecross
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby joecross » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:33 pm

colinp wrote:I am running into an issue where I can't break the supports away. I have tried pulling it out from different sections on the support piece but rather than popping out, the lines of the square are breaking on me. Anyone have any ideas how to avoid this?


If your slicer supports it, add a layer of separation between the support material and the part. Simplify3D, for example, allows you to specify the number of separation layers for the top and bottom. I use 0 on the bottom and 1 on the top.

joecross
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby joecross » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:17 am

joecross wrote:Cons
- The elastics began to break down VERY quickly. We used orthodontic-grade elastic bands. It appears that the heat and humidity are not friendly to these things.


Has anyone else had an opportunity to test the Phoenix in heat and humidity? I'm hoping others have NOT had this result, in which case I will try some different elastic bands. I tried two different manufacturers, but I may have inadvertently gotten some cheap bands.

JoelMParks
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby JoelMParks » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:28 am

john.diamond wrote:I've attached a ZIP containing the redesigned whippletree and swivel pin components that I've been using. Note the there's a little bit of support structure that needs to be trimmed off the swivel pin before it can be used.


John, any comments on this modification? I've printed and assembled all but the gauntlet and tension box for a 125% right, and I'll probably go ahead and print your modified whippletree + swivel pin components. This is my first hand and will be sent off as my test hand when I get the foam and velcro and Lee Tippi parts.

Edit: I just noticed a later post with a different zip file here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=110#p1013 I guess I'll use the newer file contents?

Edit 2: It looks like the newer file contents are for use with the Team Unlimbited thermoformed gauntlet, and I'm printing that out now instead of the gauntlet that is included in the Phoenix hand files from the dropbox link above. So I'll try to figure out how to use that one

Also, I haven't started procuring the screws yet because the parts list links to zinc-coated ones. I would have thought that stainless was a better choice. Can anyone give me some feedback on whether eventual corrosion of non-stainless parts is a valid concern?

jonjon980
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Re: The Phoenix Hand (previously Eagle Hand) fabrication and mechanical function testing

Postby jonjon980 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:35 am

Dear All,
My name is John Boktor, im living in Kuwait and this is my first arm to print.
The Sizing Spreadsheet link is not oppening, would you please share with me the new ( working ) link for, The Sizing Spreadsheet.
Thanks


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