Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

For design validation in preparation for merging into publicly released devices
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andreas
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Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:42 am

Hey gang, I would appreciate any testing and feedback of this thermoformable Raptor/Reloaded gauntlet. I know I need to add recesses for the tensioner retention clip tabs, but otherwise the overall size, pin holes, and velcro slots all seem to be functional. I will be testing this and another version (without velcro) with my test pilot next weekend.

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Peregrine Hawthorn
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Peregrine Hawthorn » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:08 pm

Oh! I like this! printing flat will make this WAY stronger. I've started having issues with the hinges in my bracer delaminating if they're printed in the typical orientation.
Heavy duty hand user, and co-designer of the Talon.

I break hands and then tell you how I did it.

droomurray
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby droomurray » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:11 am

Andreas,

Any idea when the version with the retention clips will be added, I'm keen to test and have a recipient lined up.

Drew.

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:18 pm

Drew,

Just synced updated files to my github: https://github.com/andreasbastian/e-nab ... untlet.stl

I haven't had a chance to print out the updated version, but will share results as soon as I do. FYI, is this version (V4) I also reduced the thickness of the wrap from 3mm to 2mm based on my experience with the the "full wrap" thermogauntlet I've been working on. Thinner is easier to bend and I don't think that we're lose much strength.

Will share print test results when I have a chance to!
EDIT 3/29 4:27pm: printing now on Ultimaker 2 and Type A Series 1

Andreas

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:45 am

Update: the tensioner slot was not long enough for both the retention clip and the tensioner to lock in together. Fixed in V5, synced to github: https://github.com/andreasbastian/e-nab ... untlet.stl

Aztravis
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Aztravis » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:56 pm

I am printing this at 130% right now. What percentage infill do you recommend to start with? And what method would you suggest to form it? Boiling water, heat gun, or other?

droomurray
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby droomurray » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:48 pm

I have been printing this with 100% infill and I use a plate filled with boiling water to just cover the main flat area before forming.

Drew.

joecross
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby joecross » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:27 pm

Anybody have feedback from users (as opposed to fabricators)?

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:02 pm

I met with my beta testing recipient on Monday 4-6-15 and we tested both thermogauntlets. I learned a lot form the process and am convinced that that velcro has got to go, at least on the bottom of the gauntlet. Watching how the velcro was being pressing into his skin with each flexion motion using the regular gauntlet, it's clear that the velcro is transmitting the restraining load of the flexsor lines into the underside of the forearm. Because the gauntlet slots print horizontally and the forearm is usually somewhat conical, this leads to uneven load distribution with most of the load landing on an edge of the velcro.

Forming with the Raptor/Reloaded gauntlet went well. The main challenge was keeping the dovetail on the gauntlet from deforming, but after the main forming, the dovetail slot can be heated locally and pressed back into shape. I used the tensioner dovetail as a tool while forming the slot to make sure the grip was sufficient. I found it helpful to press down on the slot to counter the bend, flattening the bottom of the slot and drawing the dovetail walls. The recipient and his family liked that the themoformed gauntlet was lower profile. They took it home and are going to test it after setting a new baseline using the newly-padded regular gauntlet.

Next we tried the full wrap gauntlet. In this early proof-of-concept stage, it is meant to be laced up, but I know that that's not a practical solution for one-handed operation. The next iteration will have buckling action and will incorporate a lot learned from this testing session. The most important thing was that the recipient liked the support when we flipped the gauntlet over (upside-down) so that the large, padded surface of the gauntlet was transmitting the flexsor restraining load to the underside of the forearm. Of course, in the photo below, you can see that there is nowhere for he tensioner to slot home, but I have a long plane ride a couple days during which time I'll whip up a couple possible solutions. The other change necessary for a comfortable fit is a larger flair towards the rear, which I will also incorporate into the next rev.

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Jason M Bryant
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:12 am

Excellent work!

Here's an idea for the full wrap guantlet. Perhaps the wings don't have to be the same length. If one side was as short as possible and the other side was twice as long, would that be enough so the guantlet would lace up on the side, instead of the top? Then you could put the dovetail groove near the edge of the wing and it would end up near the right place.

For fastening, what about a buckle like this one?

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1272/#files

I'm going to experiment with a leather gauntlet. I figured I'd make leather straps on one side, then print out a buckle like this one to attach it.

droomurray
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby droomurray » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:54 pm

Guys,

My current new build is for an adult male who is very keen to get involved with development.
I am going to try the thermo gauntlet, the previous one I printed was just a test for me and it seemed to work well; I love how it is thiner and shapes better.

The lace up or non-velcro option is a fantastic idea, I also noticed the non-level velcro does tend to dig in and lose valuable wrist movement action.

Drew.

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laird
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby laird » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:27 pm

I am printing this for someone to try. I just noticed that the v5 version has a round front to the tensioner slot. Does that mean that I should print the older version with the square front slot? Or is the regular tensioner meant to fit into the slot, wedged into the rounded front?

I ended up using the original thermoformed gauntlet design ( https://www.youmagine.com/designs/print ... d-gauntlet ) because I know that fits the tensioner. But I'd love to try this newer design as well.
- Laird Popkin

droomurray
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby droomurray » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:08 pm

Been playing with this and I REALLY like it.

Positive :-
Print time is quicker than standard gauntlet
Noticeably thinner and less bulky
Far better fit

Challenges :-
Not bending the tensioner rails when forming - I am going to print a guide out of ABS to fit when forming my next test.
My current build is a non-uniformed scale device, had to ponder how to get the right fit for this !

I am convinced that thermo-forming is the way ahead.

Drew.

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droomurray
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby droomurray » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:11 pm

Few more pics showing different in thickness against what standard would be (same thickness as palm) and also the deformed tension block rail.
TBH I could re-heat and form the tension block rail, just being lazy :)

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Drew.

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Mon May 04, 2015 8:01 am

Updates from 4/29/15 session with my beta testing recipient:

  • I've updated the wist hinge thickness so that the wrist pins don't stick out on the inside of the joint.
  • I've updated the "Full Wrap" thermogauntlet to provide better load distribution

My recipient liked the new full-wrap gauntlet for a number of reasons. It was easy to slip on and off, in part because there wasn't yet a binding in place, and there was very little play in the component, unlike the stretch of the velcro in velcro-secured gauntlets. The most important thing I saw was that he no longer had the impression of the edge of the velcro strap on his forearm, the cause of which I've attempted to illustrate below as I think it is a pervasive flaw in most gauntlet designs currently available. Because the velcro slots must be printed exactly horizontally (at least in the traditional print configuration), the velcro does not describe the roughly conical surface of the underside of the forearm. Instead, it forms a bisecting plane with the forearm and concentrates the restraining load of the gauntlet on the rear edge of the velcro, sometimes causing irritation.

TheProblemWithVelcro.jpg
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The full-wrap gauntlet is on its way to hopefully addressing this problem, but there is still some work to be done to improve the fit by reducing gaps (and therefore load concentrations). I didn't have too much trouble securing the tensioner dovetail in the thermoformed gauntlet-- I just used a spare tensioner block as a tool for ensuring the dovetail was correctly formed.

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Preparing for thermofroming with a practice 3D printed arms scan
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Next steps:
  • Implement a one-hand-operable latch/ratchet mechanism on the full-wrap thermogauntlet.
  • Adjust geometry to more closely match the surface of the forearm.
  • Update the non-full-wrap gauntlet velcro slots to be co-incident with the conical; surface of the forearm.
  • Adjust tensioner positioning to more closely match traditional gauntlet.

Docdavies
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Docdavies » Mon May 04, 2015 4:21 pm

Very nice work gentlemen.

Can you tell me how you did the 3D scan. That seems to be our weak spot. We only had one computer fast enough to do Skanet with a Kinect and it died. Looking for other options.

Doc

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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Nick » Mon May 04, 2015 5:20 pm

A bit far field here, but for fitting the full wrap gauntlet in the Hand-o-Matic, we might look at software for UV unwrapping (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_mapping). Basically to texture 3d models for CGI, they first generate a sort of "origami template" to create the model from flat material, then draw their textures onto that template.

Since it's an integral part of CGI it's a very well studied (and solved) problem in CS, so it should be relatively simple to add a "unwrap this roughly conical scan of a forearm" module to the Hand-o-Matic. Printing the unwrapped "template" would (I think) give you a perfect shape to then thermoform around that forearm.

droomurray
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby droomurray » Mon May 04, 2015 9:23 pm

Docdavies wrote:Very nice work gentlemen.

Can you tell me how you did the 3D scan. That seems to be our weak spot. We only had one computer fast enough to do Skanet with a Kinect and it died. Looking for other options.

Doc


I'm guessing its a http://structure.io scanner but maybe Andrea's will say.

I bought and have been playing with a https://www.fuel-3d.com scanner, but it takes allot of scans and stitching to make a model; although it is VERY accurate.

I am now building a 3D scanner that will be open source, watch this space :)

Drew.

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Mon May 04, 2015 10:39 pm

Doc, Nick, Drew,

No 3D scanning is necessary for this process. The 3D printed forearm and residual palm is a scaled-down print of Peregrine's arm from the Digitizer scan that Peter Binkley shared on Thingiverse. In general, I'm not convinced that building workflows on 3D scanning makes sense just yet. There's been a lot of interest in that workflow for the past two years, but I am hard pressed to find a successful implementation. I think more analog workflows (like this thermoforming) may yield a higher impact on a shorter timeframe.

The flatform was modeled without scan data (just rough measurements and iteration). In theory, it can be molded using a cast or a printed scan, but I found it helpful to work with the recipient to make sure that fit was comfortable in a variety of wrist positions.

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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby GreggDennison » Thu May 21, 2015 5:06 pm

Andreas, is there a download link for the new thermoform gauntlet for testing? Luke really likes the ease and feel of the palm and wants to test out the gauntlet.

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Thu May 21, 2015 8:44 pm

Hey Gregg,

Here's the "full wrap" thermogauntlet. It should be scaled to the same size as the rest of Luke's hand.

Note that it doesn't yet have a mechanism for latching the gauntlet closed and that you may have to trim the side with the slots (or the gauntlet may overlap on itself). I will try to model and post a revised version this weekend but would be very interested to hear your and Luke's feedback from this intermediate version.

Andreas

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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby GreggDennison » Fri May 22, 2015 9:25 am

When I scale it for Luke to 130%, it won't fit onto my buildplate. I'm using a UM2. :cry:

Jason M Bryant
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Jason M Bryant » Fri May 22, 2015 1:38 pm

Gregg, I may have an alternative for you in the next few days. Stay tuned.

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:57 am

Gregg, here are some more refined files than the ones I emailed you a couple days back. The regular Raptor Reloaded thermogauntlet now forms with less deformation to the dovetail. I also broke the "full wrap" thermogauntlet into two pieces, one of which consists of the regular thermogauntlet and the other of which is a small thermoformable brace that clicks into the velcro slots to replace the velcro strap. Thermobrace here and new thermogauntlet here. Note: the brace prints with two thin custom support structures under the overhangs on either side. These can be easily removed with any thin metal object.

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StephenDavies
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby StephenDavies » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:46 am

I've been testing the V8 gauntlet (modded with two straps instead of one). Image

Now that the gauntlet has been thickened and squared off towards the palm I have been finding that it is now digging in as shown in the photo. Image

So I have again modded the design so that the front is now thermo formable too to allow for adjustment.
Image

Can be downloaded here http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:864030

Jason M Bryant
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:15 am

I just assembled a 125% test hand using the V8 thermoform gauntlet.

I was surprised by how much the box came forward. It doesn't have the extra space in the front that the regular gauntlet has. Is there a particular reason why this changed?

Do you think this change might be problematic? I was actually thinking of testing a new box design that needed a bit more length, so I was going to make it hang over the extra edge of the RR gauntlet a bit. If all gauntlets were now being made with this extra space, that would actually be great. It's having two different standards that worries me. Even if the design that I'm thinking of doesn't work out, someone still might come up with a design that works with one gauntlet, but not the other.

Jason M Bryant
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Jason M Bryant » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:32 am

I'm also finding that having the box that far forward doesn't leave enough room for the tensioner pins.

StephenDavies
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby StephenDavies » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:34 pm

New thermo form STRAP gauntlet V3 is now available on thingyverse:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:864030
I have added extra slots to allow for different fitting options.

john.diamond
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby john.diamond » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:00 pm

I've printed the STRAP V3 at 135% and used it in combination with Jason Bryant's Phoenix V4:
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The gauntlet was easy to print ... much quicker than the traditional 3D design and printed cleanly on my RepRap which struggles with the long Velcro strap slots. The thin section in front of the dovetail allowed me to get a nice smooth curve on it during the thermoforming which I did by selectively dipping parts that needed bending without distorting the dovetail. I used the unassembled palm during the thermoforming to allow me to get the hinge set to the correct width. I didn't bend it around a wrist. Although there isn't much room between the front of the gripper box and the back of the palm when the gauntlet is bent up at 30% it seemed adequate. Do you have a writeup on obtaining the Velcro straps with buckles? Is there a separate discussion on different approaches to attaching Velcro to gauntlets? In the past I've CA glued a 1" strip of Velcro hook side to hook side half way down the strap to allow it to be attached to itself having gone through the slots ... the buckle approach would eliminate this requirement if you have straps on both sides of the gauntlet.

StephenDavies
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby StephenDavies » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:42 am

John Diamond. Here is a link to the straps I use. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311369952275? ... EBIDX%3AIT

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andreas
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby andreas » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:11 pm

Here are updated thermogauntlets with the proper tensioner slot positioning:

V9 Raptor Reloaded Thermogauntlet, broad strap (classic):
https://github.com/andreasbastian/e-nab ... untlet.stl
Screenshot 2015-07-12 13.06.36.png
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V9 Raptor Reloaded Thermogauntlet, two straps:
https://github.com/andreasbastian/e-nab ... 0strap.stl
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Scott Darrow
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Scott Darrow » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:48 pm

Here is the version that I made off of Stephen Davies file. It has thinner front area, and grooves to allow for better forming. We must have been working on this thing at the same time in Fusion 360.

Scott
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StephenDavies
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby StephenDavies » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:46 am

The grooves at the front are functional and indeed help with "deforming" the gauntlet when thermo-forming into a natural curve which rises up slightly. This helps to form a more natural shape that aids with comfort when wearing the device.

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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby GreggDennison » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:16 pm

Hey guys, i finally got one of these printed out to test. Wasn't the easiest thing to heat and mold, but once done, it looks well worth it. Luke is excited for me to finish the hand so he can try it out. There is wiggle room with this gauntlet but I'll pad it out until snug.
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StephenDavies
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby StephenDavies » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:32 pm

Comfier, better natural shape. Smaller sleeker tensioner box's. Here is the reverse dovetail gauntlet.

https://github.com/paybakuk/My-Modded-e ... 20Gauntlet

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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby GreggDennison » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:39 pm

This happened to a version 9 gauntlet. Mayhap caused by me because the whippletree would not fit correctly, it kept falling out from between the rails. I heated the rails up to make a tighter fit the noticed this after a day. Anyone else notice anything like this? I will print a new gauntlet but still concerned over initial whippletree fit.
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joecross
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby joecross » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:44 pm

Hi Stephen - do you plan to make a version of the reverse dovetail with wide velcro straps or support for the bottom brace? It would be great if there was a version in Fusion that included multiple styles so that you could pick which strap/brace you wanted and export it as STL.

echoicq
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby echoicq » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:28 am

Hi guys,

Does the hot-water method of thermoforming only work for PLA-printed gauntlet? Would it bend ABS- or polycarbonate-printed gauntlets too? I'm hoping to print non-PLA hands for West Africa and want my products to survive their 41'C Summer heat. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Many thanks.

Ed

Peregrine Hawthorn
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby Peregrine Hawthorn » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:19 am

PLA is the only one that melts at that low a temperature. ABS, you can do similar things to, but it requires a heat gun or oven to get up to temperature.
Heavy duty hand user, and co-designer of the Talon.

I break hands and then tell you how I did it.

PeterJohn
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Re: Thermoformed Raptor Reloaded Gauntlet: FEEDBACK/TESTING REQUESTED

Postby PeterJohn » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:22 pm

Hi...i am a new user here. I am printing this for someone to try. I just noticed that the v5 version has a round front to the tensioner slot. Does that mean that I should print the older version with the square front slot? Or is the regular tensioner meant to fit into the slot, wedged into the rounded front?


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