Cross-post from G+

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Cross-post from G+

Postby joecross » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:44 am

Jen Owen
Case Studies, Stories & Prints - 6 Aug 2016

+Jon Schull​ +Andreas Bastian​ - can you share where these 750 hands are going?

+Grace Mastalli​ - can you please share where all of the test hands that get sent to ECF end up? If the 100 hands that were assembled by +Shashi Jain​ and Intel ever made it to Haiti?

It would be really helpful and awesome if the ECF could start sharing this info with the global community.


Autodesk, Enable Community Foundation & Voodoo Manufacturing: Largest Volunteer Hand Drive to Date Offers 750 3D Printed Prosthetics ... doo-hands/

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Re: Cross-post from G+

Postby joecross » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:45 am

Chuck Untulis6 Aug 2016+2

I agree with Jen.

Dante Varotsis6 Aug 2016+1

Hi Jen, we received the Intel hands for the Haiti project (thank you for setting that up +Shashi Jain!) but found that the need for arms instead of hands, anthropomorphic design (more like flexyhand in arm form), and skin tone led to those devices ultimately being the improper solution. Furthermore the need for a prosthetist became a stark reality to get patients the correct care. I shared some of those findings with the community around New Years last year. We are also preparing a more detailed post but it's hard to compile something short enough to be read that address two years of lessons. 

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

+Dante Varotsis​, since the 100 hands that +Shashi Jain​ sent didn't get used in Haiti - where did they go from there?

Are they on their way to another group or just sitting in a box in a room somewhere?

Mohit Chaudhary6 Aug 2016

Hey +Jen Owen I've have them in my Makerspace's storage and can send them where they are needed. Email or message me and we can coordinate further. 

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

Thanks for letting us know where they are +Mohit Chaudhary​

I guess I am a bit frustrated that instead of finding homes and recipients for 100 hands that were assembled months ago - when there are wait lists and the ECF continues to ask volunteers to print hands to send in to them, that these have just been sitting in a closet.

Why did ECF not take them and distribute them to kids in need on their request list, or send them on to another chapter in need?

+Thierry Oquidam​ +Joe Cross​ do you have recipients these could be delivered to?

I know for a fact that +christian silva​ has a wait list of over 100 and has gotten zero help.

While it is great that ECF and Autodesk made 750 hands, it would be awesome to hear where they are going and why the hands already assembled are just sitting in a closet.

I know both ECF and Autodesk work with E-NABLE Haiti. There is no way they didn't know that the 100 hands were not getting used.

+GRACE MASTALLI​ - the community would be interested in hearing more.

+Shashi Jain​

Shashi Jain6 Aug 2016

+Mohit Chaudhary thanks for letting me know where they are. It's dismaying to know they aren't being used by anyone, let alone in Haiti, particularly since we included some encouraging messages in French with each hand. What can we do to put them to work? If you need help to distribute them, please just ask. 

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

I find it alarming that the hands created by +Shashi Jain and Intel are sitting in a closet while on the ECF website - on the "Lend a hand" page - they are linking to a story about how Intel created 100 hands for Haiti and using it as an example of how others can "Lend a hand"

And businesses can Lend a Hand too.
Intel and others have organized team-building events (this links to this URL: ... d=18061030 ) around the assembly of pre-printed e-NABLE hands. It’s a surprisingly effective and rewarding way of building good fellowship and good will among your employees while helping to change the world, one hand at a time. We can supply everything you need, and help you get organized.

I dont even have words right now.

Im angry.

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

+Maria Esquela​ where do your scouts send their complete devices?

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

PS +Mohit Chaudhary and +Dante Varotsis (anger is not towards you. You two are amazing. Thank you for all you are doing for Haiti.)

Thierry Oquidam6 Aug 2016

Do we have an idea about what side (left or right) and what sizes are available ? New chapters like New Caledonia and medical professionals could use an assorted set for try-ons.

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

+Shashi Jain - do you have an idea of what Intel put together so that +Thierry Oquidam and Joe might be able to find them homes?

Shashi Jain6 Aug 2016+1

We had a normal distribution of sizes from 100-155%. Most of the hands were 100, 120, or 125% with an even split between right and left. Most hands were printed in white or black, with a few in various colors. A good percentage were printed in ABS on Stratasys printers and are very high quality. I personally QA'd 48 of the hands before shipping them off. The remainder were done by a friend that I trained. They should be ready-to-fit, needing only some padding work.

Drew Murray6 Aug 2016

+Dante Varotsis maybe myself and +stephen davies should try get +Steve Wood together and do a flexy hand Haiti edition

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

+Drew Murray - I think +christian silva has a fabulous flexy arm and hand design that his recipients are using - perhaps you can work with him as well?

Drew Murray6 Aug 2016

+Jen Owen our design is different to +christian silva and we have pointed out some items to focus on, maybe one day !

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

I know that +Ellen Druda also sent in 50ish hands to ECF that her library patrons made and I am going to ask +Enable Matcher and ECF where those hands have gone as well?

There are groups who are spending countless hours using their 3D printers, putting on build events, providing snacks and spaces and materials and hardware and tools and filament to make large numbers of hands as team building and educational exercises - and it would be great to have a list provided by ECF that shows exactly where their hands have gone...and that they too are not sitting in a warehouse somewhere - going unused.

I know I will probably get a "we don't have the staffing to put together this information" response but I am hoping I am wrong.

There are interns at ECF who could be compiling this information so that the community that is providing all of these hands to ECF - can at least know where their efforts are going.

Your community wants answers and updates. Please provide information for those that have worked so hard and taken pride in their events (rightly so!) and sent in hands.

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

(PS - meanwhile - Chris Craft who is a teacher running the just sent 40 hands to Africa for their wait list and they have now been delivered and are ready to distribute there.)

Dante Varotsis6 Aug 2016+1

+Jen Owen that was our fault not the ECFs. Anger should also not be pointed towards them. +Shashi Jain I'm sorry that our communication fell short and the hands are in storage. Again, we would happily send them where else they need to go, but they were unfortunately not appropriate for the haiti situation. I hope you understand. +Drew Murray I have seen some flexy arms made by +christian silva but no documentation. Is there documentation for your version?

Dante Varotsis6 Aug 2016+1

The hands were intended for haiti +Jen Owen. And they would have been an amazing donation if that is what the Haitians needed. Again that is our fault and not the ECFs. Sorry about that again. We are just trying to do right by the people that need arms and communication slipped through. 

Shashi Jain6 Aug 2016

+Dante Varotsis all understandable. How can we help you and +Mohit Chaudhary get the hands distributed if they aren't appropriate for Haiti? Is it a matter of shipping? I might be able to help with that.

Joe Cross6 Aug 2016+1

+Jen Owen I have requests from about 10 chapters with cumulative wait lists about 200 long. To be honest, I'm not a fan of the "build them and they will come" model. Instead, I'm focusing on how to scale a personalized matching system so that recipients get a properly-sized device of their choosing in the colors they want. I've seen the look on recipients faces when they get an "off the shelf" device versus their reaction when they get the exact device they imagined - no comparison in my opinion.

Having said that, when there is excess supply and unmet demand, I'd say lets ask recipients on our wait lists if they would like a generic device in the short-term while they wait for their personalized device. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time to hunt down leftover devices from prior print-a-thons and match them to chapter wait lists. But if someone sent me a spreadsheet with available devices, I'd be happy to send it to the chapters with wait lists and ask if they want any of them.

** Stay tuned for the September 30th launch of Enable Outreach's new mobile app that will allow recipients to ask for exactly what they want and be safely matched to a chapter or individual that will make it for them. Scalable and personalized...

Dante Varotsis6 Aug 2016

Thank you for understanding +Shashi Jain. +Jen Owen I cannot stress enough how much this is not on the ECF. It should be the prerogative of community members to compile the information that you ask for. This is a grassroots movement and the ECF is meant to support but not do everything for, in particular when it is not well documented (a mistake we have made and will do our best to correct.)

Shashi Jain6 Aug 2016

+Dante Varotsis I disagree on this point. I sent the hands to ECF on behalf of Intel and they could have done more to communicate the issues and ask for more help when it was clear that the hands weren't the right ones. People and organizations make mistakes particularly when they are on a growth trajectory. You and ECF can both take some accountability here. It's ok. Let's collaborate on a solution!

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016+1

Thank you +Dante Varotsis and +Mohit Chaudhary - while I agree that the miscommunication and lack of reporting is partly your fault - as +Shashi Jain explained - the 100 Haiti hands were originally shipped to ECF Melina and thus someone should have let Shashi know that they would have to find another home for them.

My biggest concern is not with the hands shipped for Haiti and having them left in a closet for months - it is more that there are large groups doing large builds and sending them directly to ECF with no word on where they are ending up, if they are being used as demo hands, put on recipients or any kind of information what so ever.

Countless times we have asked "Where do all the hands go?" and we have yet to get an answer.

Where DO the hands get shipped to?
What chapters are getting them to distribute?
Are the large assembly builds being done by libraries, scout troops and schools - going to a warehouse waiting to be used for makerfaires and to make the tables pretty or are they actually going to recipients? And if they are going to recipients - the ECF should be telling us where they go.

Now there are 750 hands on top of 100 hands on top of 50 hands on top of how many other hands that have been sent directly to ECF and not a single word has been shared as to where they are going and who is getting them.

that is all I am asking for and I don't think it is too much to ask when makers are REQUIRED to send in a fully assembled test hand to ECF to get approved to be matched and yet we still don't know what happens to those hands when they end up in ECF care.

I am glad we can finally figure out what happened to the Haiti hands - but that is not the big issue here.

Maybe I am the only one that has this question - but I have asked it repeatedly and never get an answer and I personally think that everyone that is sending in hands and spending money to make them - deserves an answer.

Drew Murray6 Aug 2016

+Dante Varotsis ... n-current/ and

Ellen Druda6 Aug 2016

+Melina Brown told me our hands would probably be used in 3 different ways: as demo hands for schools or makerfaires, sent to an overseas chapter and distributed by volunteers there, or put directly into the matching system. That is what I have told our volunteers at the library. Although it would be fantastic to know where they end up individually, this explanation seems to suffice. I hope it's correct, and they are not sitting in a closet somewhere....

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016+1

I think it is wonderful that some of the hands end up as demo hands for schools and makerfaires but I also believe that makers and event coordinators who are making large numbers and sending them in - should be given the information as to where they actually did end up. How many went to schools for demos? How many went to makerfaires?

How many makers sending in hands - think their work is going to benefit an actual child and it really only ends up on a makerfaire table?

I know many people are ok not knowing where their hands are going when they are finished - but I for one get plenty of emails from folks who have sent in test hands to ECF or large #'s of hands who email me to ask me if I can tell them if I know who got their hand, if they can see photos of the recipient they believe is now wearing it and wondering if they can make more hands to send to various locations - and I don't have answers for them because Im not the one people are sending hands to.

It would be really nice if the ECF could get someone (maybe one of their interns) to create a spreadsheet that is publicly viewable so that folks can actually see the numbers and see how many are being distributed to people on the wait list vs how many are getting sent to schools and makerfaires.

It would also be nice to know how many recipients are on the ECF wait list so the community knows if it is even needed to make large bulk #'s if there are more hands made than needed currently.

Or something like that.

In short - I'd just love to see some actual reporting being done so that the e-NABLE Community isn't left in the dark on where their hard work is going.

Thank you.

Chuck Untulis6 Aug 2016+1

Hi Jen,
I have asked the same questions of various members of ECF during the last two years and have yet to receive any kind of information except for "we are working on it". If ECF is not going to do anything but PR, then this should be stated someplace and you and others can continue to fill the void.

I have suspended my printing of hands for the last few months hoping that I can get some feedback about where the hands are going.

Thank you for your hard work and insight on this issue and for driving the discussion about the status of the hands.

As far as I can tell, for the last few months ECF has essentially gone dark. I have made that observation to at least two ECF folks.

Dante Varotsis6 Aug 2016

+Drew Murray thanks for the link

Jen Owen6 Aug 2016

Thank you +Chuck Untulis - it is nice to know I am not alone in not having my reasonable questions answered. (But sad that this is the case.)

When people email me through the website - I have personally started encouraging schools and groups to NOT send hands to ECF - because I can't honestly tell them what will happen to them when they spend all of that time making them and then ship them off to ECF where they get a promise that "They will be put to good use."


Instead, I am suggesting to teachers and scout leaders and companies that instead of making numerous hands and shipping them to ECF - that they instead encourage their students to start working on designs for improving the current ones, making tools instead of hands, thinking outside of the box and simply using the e-NABLE Project as an inspiration.

Using the e-NABLE Project as a cool example of what kids can do in the STEM program. I think that makes more impact than printing out pre-existing parts and shipping them to someone and never getting word back on where they go.

If they want to make a hand for a recipient - I am now encouraging them to reach out via media, contact theirlocal Shriners and the like so that they can connect with a real person and know exactly who they are making a hand for.

I do not see a need to be making a "Shoe store supply" any longer. We have enough makers and volunteers who have themselves been WAITING to be matched with a recipient for sometimes more than a year - there is no need to stock pile these hands when we have makers BEGGING for a match.

With the e-NABLE Community Chapters that +Joe Cross is working on - we hope that we will get more schools to sign up as chapters and then they can then "Adopt" a chapter and help create devices for people on THOSE wait lists who are not getting help from ECF.


A school in the USA can be matched with an e-NABLE Chapter in Nigeria or Ghana who has a long wait list. They can get a few recipients to make hands for from that chapter so they not only get to make a hand for someone on a wait list in a country where it is harder to get them - but they also get challenged to custom make a device based on the recipients needs, gets them using design skills, problem solving etc AND they can then also get to talk to other e-NABLE Volunteers in another culture and area in the world.

It's a win win and much more logical than making dozens of hands and sending them to someone with hopes that they will "end up where they need to go."

That's just my two cents. Or maybe 75

Thanks for listening.

Joe Cross7 Aug 2016


Just a reminder - if you want to print for an actual recipient rather than an ECF fundraiser:

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Re: Cross-post from G+

Postby joecross » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:45 am

Jacquin Buchanan7 Aug 2016+3

I am new to e-nable. I will start by saying, I completely understand the issue of growing pains like this. Anyone who has been involved in a movement like this knows how expectations can greatly outpace reality. Though, what little I have seen from this group leads me to belive the problems +Jen Owen is rightly pointing out will be solved.

Having said that, when I got my test hand approved only a few weeks ago. I expected to be directed to some system like what +Joe Cross has linked to. I am guessing the ECF app that is due Sept 30, is even more of this. Awesome.

I think ECF needs to think of itself as a conduit of information more than a distributer of actual hardware. It is the only way they can scale up. ECF should be a central organization that approves makers, recipients, and designs then provides ways to pair those things up. Sending hands to ECF for them to distribute will not scale. And lacks the customized build that the recipients require. Better EDF looks to Uber as a model. Makers and Recipients can be in a system just like Drivers and Riders in Uber. Makers have ratings and history attached to their profiles, so when a match is made by the system the recipient can decide maybe they don't want to work with a 2 star maker.

Where the analogy to Uber varies is ECF needs to approve and have some sort of rating system for designs too. I would treat designs like Uber treats drivers. Allow anyone to submit designs, and the approved makers can rate the designs. Therefore bad designs pretty quickly get dropped off, and good ones get picked up.

That is my 2 cents or maybe 75 cents. You guys are doing great things. Keep going. 

Jen Owen7 Aug 2016+1

+Jacquin Buchanan - thank you for your input.

Agree. :)

I think we are going to start working on a badging system. I think it is time. :)

Grace Mastalli7 Aug 2016

+Jen Owen I am sorry, but as some of the comments suggest, just because you and the entire G+ community do not know disposition of all devices sent to ECF does not mean that those users, makers and sponsors involved have not been or will not be informed. It is far more important to ECF that individuals with limb differences get appropriate, high quality devices and care that meet their specific needs and that their privacy be respected. As you know, once the bulk assembly event devices are shipped to ECF they undergo rigorous evaluation and in some cases repair or reassembly. Those who submit test hands that are accepted are notified as you also know. An inventory system with barcodes (thank you +Stephan Heunis ) allows us to keep track of all devices from all sources and their disposition in order to keep everyone who needs to know appropriately informed. When appropriate and recipients are willing that information be shared, this information is publicized and can be reshared. Putting current and future recipients interests and needs first, however, is of paramount importance to ECF and
I know that while you disagree with how we are doing this, that you share that value.

Attacking ECF processes and staff, and generally generating strife, however, does a disservice to everyone. +Jen Owen you chose a different path from ECF's but there is no reason not to also chose peaceful coexistence. There are enough unmet needs and unsolved problems in the world for all of us to address. Please use your strong voice and immense creativity to spark positive attitudes and constructive efforts. Thank you.

Rich Brown7 Aug 2016+1

I Am so Glad that Grace has posted. I was composing the following on word to put into the post. As you can see Grace answered some of the questions with information that has already been in progress. Perhaps we need to openly know about the activity that goes on inside ECF & e-NABLE. It will probably assure us that we are actually in a healthy state.

Before Grace's post:

The current discussion is actually healthy in my opinion. By exploring our faults objectively, we can clear the air of any differences and create solutions. The obvious is that there are multiple points of view and uncontrolled growth in a “wild west” community, without a plan to handle all of the administrative tasks that occur in the evolution of the community. Note in being politically correct and not wanting to step on feet we all have avoided what now is the obvious…slow down and spend a majority of efforts into all of the structured organization that is needed. For each problem there is a solution. We need one place, not a forum or a Google post, where all information on administration can be posted by one individual in a manner that all of the community/chapters understand.
There seems to be division that is created by the two organizations. To membership it is not clear and only causes greater communication confusion, resentment and splits.
First there is a double standard for chapters and each having different criteria unnecessarily. Just make an Institutional or Public Chapter Category for both ECF & e-NABLE...with membership in each organization, same benefits provided to the chapters.
Individuals who are qualified members should be on a membership (contributors) roll which is renewed annually to keep counts reliable. Recipients are not members unless they are contributors. Contact information of membership should include names, address, personal email, etc. and be available through ECF or e-NABLE unless marked as private but the organization should legally have this documented.
WE need to be aware of client privacy, HIPPA type regulation and quality control standards of each product created. This is only my opinion and I am sure there are members and programmers who can create a tool to assure record keeping. There is going to come a time when accountability will come from an agency outside our community.
My contribution to the idea is that each hand and model should have a serial number on one particular segment of the hand and a logistics style way to track the hand/arm. Since it appears from the posts that everything is first delivered to ECF, Inc. that is where the recorder should start when product comes in. As a starter the following can be created in a spreadsheet:
Where do hands go? HIPPA Compliant - Matcher Check List
Chapter or Maker ID # Hand SN# / Style Recipient ID # Request Date Waiver Delivery Date Therapy Guide Trainer

My chapter, small C because we have never made application to either org. to be a formal chapter has had liability as it major concern. The cost to defend a legal action is something that none of us have wanted to face, yet according to our attorneys it is real.
I presented and idea for Crowd Funding to create a legal war chest to buy a risk policy to ECF last week and was told it is under discussion. Like many things that are pending we have no updates or time reference when a project is completed. We need from both groups a place where we can look up pending or current projects and their status. Like Jen says, manpower is the issue response so let’s get the community to be the manpower. Now mind you it is obvious there are a lot of very good, wonderful and passionate people involved so let’s get together as one mind and created a list of what you think needs to be done and then let’s do it!

Jen Owen7 Aug 2016

+Grace Mastalli​ - I am going to try to break this down:

1. We are not asking for recipient information. We just want to know where these hands are going and where the other hands go. Asking for a simple "Recipients. Makerfaire table. School demo. SItting in the ECF storage." spreadsheet or report to show the global community where their hard work is going - is not asking for recipient information. It is asking a basic question - one which many of us have been asking for - for over a year and always get a run around response.

Where are these 750 hands going? Where are the 50 hands that were sent from the library? Where are the other dozens and hundreds of hands being shipped to ECF Going? That is all we are asking.

2. I am not attacking the ECF. There is a huge difference between asking hard questions and demanding answers than "attacking" the ECF. Every time a community member asks a question that the ECF members do not want to answer - we are "attacking" you. In your eyes.

This is not the case. We are asking a question that should be answered by your organization and may other questions that we never get answers to. We are sharing our experiences, having a discussion and hoping for answers.

If you want the community to "peacefully co-exist" then perhaps you should start communicating with them instead of telling them that every time they ask a question of you, that they are "attacking" you and then still not answer their questions.

3. I agree. I do have a strong voice and I appear to be the one that everyone turns to when they are frustrated with the lack of communication by ECF and when their questions go unanswered as well. I will continue to speak for those who are too afraid to voice their concerns about ECF for fear of being told they are "attacking" the ECF vs asking a hard question and having their posts deleted.

My voice is for the community and as you can see on this thread, there are many who are asking the exact question I brought up and would also like to know the answer - but unfortunately - it took the STRONG voice, the one that isn't afraid to speak her thoughts and ask the questions - to start the conversation. Unfortunately, over the past few years, ECF and I have butted heads and thus anytime I ask a hard question, it is immediately taken as an "attack."

This isn't an attack on the ECF - it is exactly what it is - a QUESTION that we would like answered.

Where will these 750 hands go?
What will you do with the 100 hands that are sitting in a closet that were intended for Haiti?
How many recipients are on the wait list?
Why were 750 hands made as a corporate event/team building event when we have volunteers and makers and schools who are still waiting to be matched with a recipient? Why weren't they asked to print?

Where is the spreadsheet or monthly/bi-yearly/yearly report that shows the community where all of the hands have gone? (again - we are not asking for individual recipients - just how many are actually going to recipients vs makerfaires, demo hands and the ECF stock room?)

That is all.

Jen Owen7 Aug 2016

If any of my frustrations for lack of communication from ECF has come off as "attacking" them - I apologize. It is very frustrating to ask repeatedly for answers and never get responses and my frustration certainly shows through.

Grace Mastalli7 Aug 2016

+Jen Owen
I thought I was being responsive. We report to those involved directly, our board and funders as appropriate and provide other data publicly at least annually. Providing legally and contractually required reports is very time consuming and involves confidential information.
FYI Until these Autodesk devices --parts for which were printed by an ECF partner for an ECF Funder's global event which required consistent quality on a short time frame in the neutral and flesh colors preferred by ECF's highest need recipients - are shipped to ECF, tested, fitted and distributed everyone Just will have to be patient. While it would be ideal to have enough time and talent to respond to every single request for information, we have found attempting to address some such demands to be distracting and often counterproductive.
Sadly, in the G+ community it seems unless ECF does things your way or the old way our answers disappoint you and others and for that I am sorry. We indeed are part of the community and movement but as a responsible nonprofit can only have ECFs priorities informed by facts and funding constraints not dictated by the loudest community voices. I do hope we can proceed in a more peaceful manner. I fear that your words are indeed often perceived by many as being wielded divisively more as weapons and threats than gentle inquiries. The power of your platform to be a positive force for the good of all is great. Use it well please, and consider supporting ECFs efforts to be a force for good using systems and methods different from those you prefer. I hope we can just agree to disagree about how best to accomplish the goal of aiding underserved populations of people with upper limb differences.

Jen Owen7 Aug 2016+1

+Grace Mastalli might I suggest utilizing the dozens and hundreds of volunteers who are constantly asking to help in some way?

We have numerous folks who would be happy to compile reports for ECF so that the community can be more informed.

I have many questions that will remain unanswered. Your "answers" are never answers.

I am done here. When you decide to share where hands go, I know the community will be very excited to finally learn their fate.

Thank you

Drew Murray7 Aug 2016

I have to concur with +Jen Owen the default ECF answers are along the lines of "Were working on it", "It's coming", "It's confidential" yet the ECF is happy to ride on the communities effort - as clearly seen in their annual report.

Given that only 7% of our recipients have ever asked for no publicity and the ECF never seem to publish many recipient stories at all I suspect theres more than the devices mentioned by +Jen Owen sat in boxes, but hey thats for the ECF to answer; this post is NOT an attack, but a statement of debate.

Thierry Oquidam7 Aug 2016

I wish to hereby claim NOT WILLING TO BE a g+ moderator.
I totally disavow the opaque comportment of ECF and the way that any question on what it does is so conveniently considered as a threat and not answered.
ECF has turned in some kind of money making machine that (beyond personal feelings about it) are against what the original e-Nable movement is about, and is trying to take over it.
As far as I can do, this is not going to happen.
I have built e-Nable France because I loved what Ian and Jen did, and this is what all our makers bond for. My team and I are running it on our personal money. We are locally under the same questionning as +jen owen is asking, and for our own information and future development we seek answers from more experienced chapters.
If ECF with all its past is not able or willing to provide us with helpful information, I am not willing to contribute to a g+ community they obviously want to manage, whatever can be said about it.
I began building hands in september '14, if references are needed, and never stopped since.

Jon SchullYesterday 00:31+1

+Thierry Oquidam I can say with some confidence that ECF does NOT WANT to manage the community and before I left ECF, the Board explicitly encouraged me to help the community develop a system for self-governance.

That process is well underway, and it would be a shame if people abandoned this community, and it's vast repository of shared knowledge and information, just because they disagree with some of the contributors.

We're doing a lot of good, and there is much more to do.

Joe CrossYesterday 12:02+2

+Jacquin Buchanan​ - just to be clear, the app coming out Sept 30 is not from the ECF. It is from e-NABLE Outreach, which has no relation to ECF.

And this is the heart of the concerns being raised by many veteran e-NABLE volunteers. The Community is not the ECF. But the posts from new volunteers (and the dozens of emails Jen and I and others receive) make it clear that they do not differentiate between the Community and ECF. And despite the platitudes, the ECF is VERY happy to benefit from that confusion. Whether it be refusing to give other groups, sites and non-profits equal voice in this G+ group, claiming credit for the work the Community does, or withholding information that would allow volunteers to make informed decisions about how to contribute - the recurring pattern is not a coincidence or growing pains or lack of resources. It is an intentional strategy to use the Community's work to generate donations that pay salaries and travel expenses. The ECF 990 and Annual Report make that clear. This is the Wounded Warrior project all over again.

Instead of taking 30 minutes to read and respond to this thread, I encourage the ECF to use that time to update the G+ sidebar with a link to, links to other intake forms and clearly explain the relationship between the Community and the numerous non-profits supporting it. That 30 minutes would help FAR more volunteers and recipients. 

Drew MurrayYesterday 13:03+2

Well said +Joe Cross 

Drew MurrayYesterday 16:56+2

+Thierry Oquidam I think you should become a moderator, e-NABLE France is one of the biggest chapters, your input into the community is critical and as a moderator what a better way to do so.

Jen OwenYesterday 18:00+1

+Thierry Oquidam - I agree with +Drew Murray

The only way that this Community is going to thrive in here is if Non ECF folks help to repair it.

Having seasoned volunteers as moderators is the only way I personally see this Community making the same kind of waves we have been for the past few years up until the ECF completely took this space over.

New people are still joining every day and are under the assumption that the ECF is the COMMUNITY and that needs to change. We need people like you, who know what you are doing out there in the world - to help run this space and get the side bar back to showing that the ECF is NOT the Community - so that people can find the help they need, get resources that are available that are NON ECF resources and make donations to groups and chapters that are in need of donations simply to make more hands for people in their areas vs paying salaries.


Jeff ErenstoneYesterday 21:10+1

I am going to try and move through a lot quickly. I am too busy helping ECF do valuable work and don't want to waste time responding to +Joe Cross and others.

But Joe's sense of history is very warped and offensive to people who have been working for this movement much longer than he has.

Yes, ECF has decided not to lead the Google Plus community anymore and Jon Schull has started a process of self governance (see pinned post). But this doesn't mean ECF is not PART of the community and it is offensive that Joe is drawing a distinction between ECF and the community at large.

Additionally, when ECF gave up the role of governance it also gave up the "requirement" to explain and post about its activities. Like every type of community a member has a greater right to privacy than the government officials. So, ECF doesn't need to explain what they are doing to +Jen Owen

+Joe Cross you claimed that ECF is taking credit for works of the community. Yet in the same breath you criticize ECF for its management of the community. In the past ECF was managing the community, so why can't it share in the success of the community??? You may not like how they managed the community but they did the work and deserve the credit. +Melina Brown alone is directly responsible for MOST of the matches that happened in the community. Most of that work was done while she was volunteer. It was a huge amount of work, and shame on you for not acknowledging it.

The people who started the ECF started this community. Even +Jen Owen was once on the staff of ECF and her website costs were paid by ECF long after she publicly and frequently criticized them.

Who are the people who developed the Raptor, the Raptor Reloaded, the RIT arm, and helped +Jason Bryant with the Phoenix? They are some of the people who are working with ECF. +Andreas Bastian is personally responsible for hundreds (maybe thousands) of design hours on these many designs, and their earlier versions.

+Drew Murray You use the Phoenix for the terminal device in the Unlimited Arm. You use a forearm that was first developed by +christian silva. You use an elbow joint that was first developed by RIT (an ECF chapter). You use a heat forming method that was pioneered +Andreas Bastian and refined by +Skip Meetze and myself. Yet you don't give any of these people credit so it is incredibly hypocritical for you and +Joe Cross to claim that ECF is wrongly taking credit. Especially when ECF has tried to give you credit for your work before you required them to remove your reference from their site. I am having a hard time thinking of something more hypocritical.

The last thing I will say here (and possibly the last post I make in response to you) is to talk about the claim of "confusion" and how it's ECF's fault. Are you sure that ECF is making the confusion? Yes there is some of the same content on the ECF site and ETF site.... but remember ECF was paying for the ETF site until recently and Jen was on staff of ECF when some of this content was made.

Since the separation of ECF and ETF, the foundation started doing design challenges. Later ETF started doing design challenges. ECF changed the icons of their home page and now the icons on ETF look very similar these icons.... Let me ask you.... who is making the confusion?

It blows my mind that +Joe Cross +Drew Murray and +Jen Owen have constantly claimed that ECF is somehow wronging the community. Even in response to this post, you will likely claim that ECF and I are wronging you. I have been accused of being the ECF bully.... yet you keep on try to draw ECF into a fight and not the other way around. So who is the bully?

Why don't you follow the advice you have given in the past and think of ECF as just another chapter of the e-NABLE community and let them focus on getting work done. We have all wasted too much time responding to your attacks.

Lastly, it is not ECF's fault that they are bigger and better funded that you. They have worked harder and longer than you have. Let them get back to work and stop writing posts designed to criticize and belittle them.

Jen OwenYesterday 22:09

Im sorry +Jeff Erenstone but you have some of your facts wrong.

1. Raptor was created by Ivan Owen, Andreas Bastian, Frankie Flood and Peter Binkley. Only Andreas is on the ECF board.

2. The design challenges on the ETF website are for children/students - they are design challenges that I proposed for over a year while working WITH the ECF and they were shot down every time. Once I was no longer on ECF payroll and free to pursue my ideas freely - I have done so and they have been very successful. As a matter of fact, the first design challenge listed on the ETF website is one that I asked to do for over a year with the ECF.

3. I left the ECF in September 2015 because I refused to sell or lease the ETF website domain to them so I was let go completely and given the ultimatum that if I didn't sell/lease it - I was fired - even though I did a whole lot more work (event planning, media communications, email answering, social media, graphic design work, etc) than writing stories about the community and yep, ECF paid for the first year of the larger website fees until I took over in early 2016. Now it is funded by Ultimaker and the generous donations of Patreon contributors. I refused to allow the ECF to take control of the website for fear it would turn into a website that didn't reflect the heart of the community and I will never regret that decision.

4. The ECF benefited GREATLY by paying a few bucks a month to have the ETF website up and running (and technically - the ECF didn't pay for the ETF website - the people who donated to ECF and assumed the money was going toward supporting the community did) and to have me sharing stories from the community - as for many months there was a "Donate" button that sent people to ECF to make donations that would not have come through for them without the work I was doing on the ETF website. They sent people and sponsors to the ETF website to show off the stories of the community that I was writing about and in turn gained more donations - they were repaid WAY more than what they put in to "paying for the ETF website." It costs about $250 a year to pay for the website - they made well above that per month through donations made through the donate button on the ETF website.

5. Instead of paying me a salary - they paid me 15% of whatever they got through the ETF Donate button - which helped a little bit to pay for my time to keep working on the website but certainly not a living wage. Eventually - I got tired of not seeing any of the donations from that button getting put back into the community they were supposed to be supporting and took the button off of my website - thus resulting in complete loss of income on my part but I continued to work on the website for 30-40 hours a week without any pay at all rather than having people donate to ECF and never seeing it used for helping the community.

6. I had already started working on making the website more functional and easier to read and easier to locate information for those seeking assistance....long before the ECF website was out. You can see my requests for help and input from the Community in a few different posts:

November 2015: ... ydrcNNKPqx
December 3, 2015: ... 8NxPWy8RFP

7. Yes - I do agree that the titles for the "Need a hand" "Build a hand" and "Lend a hand" match the ECF but at the time of the new websites for both of us - we were still working together - as they had a donate button on my website and they were supporting mine by shooting me 15% of whatever they got per month in donations from that button. Having both websites looking similar was a BENEFIT to the ECF so that they looked like they were working together instead of two separate entities.

I am more than happy to change the names of the boxes to something else now that we are not working together any longer.

The ICONS used on the ETF website existed before the ECF was even created. The icon with the heart in the hand - was created by and turned into a TATTOO on one of Ivan's best friends (in 2014) and he then turned it into a 3D printable file for use at makerfaires. The Icon on ETF for the Build a hand box is a graphic that was made by Frankie Floods students before the prosthetists meets printers conference in 2014. The icon used for "Lend a hand" on ETF website is the logo that was used for the community since we started in early 2013. The icon used for the "About us" box - was created by me in 2014 for the Hopkins conference.

Please tell me again that these icons were created AFTER the ECF icons?

8. I am sure many of the community members take great offense to your last statement however:

"Lastly, it is not ECF's fault that they are bigger and better funded that you. They have worked harder and longer than you have. Let them get back to work and stop writing posts designed to criticize and belittle them."

REALLY? Because last I checked, I've been working on this project since my husband created the FIRST hand, have poured my heart and soul into it, spend just as many hours working as hard as the ECF folks do and FYI the ECF got the GOOGLE+ 600,000K Grant because of MY WORK sharing the stories and documenting them for the past 4 years, the VOLUNTEERS in the COMMUNITY that are actually doing all of the work that gives me material to even write about AND the hard work that +Jon Schull and others put into getting this project into the lap of the GOOGLE people.

There are DOZENS of volunteers who are working even HARDER than the ECF staff are - every single day. Your statement is quite outrageous and FALSE.

Drew MurrayYesterday 22:19


WOW just WOW, that post by +Jeff Erenstone is by my definition is going ALL in, well never one to shy away let me join in.



"ECF has decided not to lead the Google Plus community anymore"
I dont ever recall the ECF asking the community if it could take over the community - this always has and always will be one of the greatest mistakes when the ECF founded ITSELF.

"But this doesn't mean ECF is not PART of the community"
I totally agree the ECF is one "Chapter" amongst many more, when the ECF took over the community the ECF stripped the community links from google+ group in an attempt to "Convert" it into an ECF entity WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE COMMUNITY.

"when ECF gave up the role of governance it also gave up the "requirement" to explain and post about its activities"
So the ECF might as well leave the community then; after all you have nothing to explain or activity to post.

"In the past ECF was managing the community, so why can't it share in the success of the community?"

"Yet you don't give any of these people credit so it is incredibly hypocritical for you"
100% totally and utterly untrue, the bottom of our releases credit the sources. We have also
been in contact with and shared our work with everyone we have developed with or taken inspiration from. Also we never used anything from the RIT arm, maybe at a push it could be closer to the raptor wing.

"constantly claimed that ECF is somehow wronging the community"
Correct and they have, they offer no help despite stating they "support the community" - HOW, TELL ME HOW THEY SUPPORT THE COMMUNITY ?

"ECF has tried to give you credit for your work before you required them to remove your reference from their site"
Obviously you fail to see why this was requested, its simple, the ECF DID NOTHING TO HELP US, they did not ask permission to pass off our work without CORRECT ATTRIBUTION in the ECF report.
Instead the ECF tried to pass off our work as that of 2 individuals and not crediting us as a "Chapter" - you know as in the very thing you are now saying the ECF is ?

"Why don't you follow the advice you have given in the past and think of ECF as just another chapter of the e-NABLE community"
Glad to do so, once the COMMUNITY has been re-established, the links to Chapters made available on the community g+ page and the ECF re-images themselves as NOT the e-NABLE community but a chapter of the e-NABLE movement.

"it is not ECF's fault that they are bigger and better funded that you."
WOW, just WOW is this the level we are at "my dad's bigger than your dad ?"
Now bigger is a relative thing, in terms of money yes the ECF has won big grants, but what success have you had with that then ?

Have ECF iterated and delivered a design that has really pushed things on - NO.
Have ECF done anything with the community that created this movement - NO.
Have the ECF received HUNDEREDS of devices that are sat in boxes doing nothing - YES.

From the inception of the ECF and when they won the google grant the ECF has to perform to its sponsors and thats fine, JUST DONT DO IT OFF THE BACK OF THE COMMUNITY.

+Jeff Erenstone I know your the single recognised professional around here and that your professional advise is of massive value to the community, but replaying fiction as fact is not the way to bring value to your opinion.

+Jeff Erenstone +Jen Owen +Jon Schull +stephen davies +Joe Cross +Thierry Oquidam 

Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Cross-post from G+

Postby joecross » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:46 am

Jeff ErenstoneYesterday 23:07

The responses +Jen Owen and +Drew Murray are easy.

+Jen Owen I have added the words "some of" to my mentioned of the "Raptor". But thanks for proving my point that ECF and former ECF board members were "part of this community.

Your other points are not worth a response.

+Drew Murray Management of the Google Plus community was given to ECF by +Jon Schull the owner of the community. They have stepped away. You were on the Hangout when they did. The G+ community and its links are currently control by the owner while self governance is being worked on.

Also, Here is the post +stephen davies made before he fit Isabella... ... YKMpyDcYTd

Here is the post that made you and Stephen famous on youtube.

+stephen davies has recently released an image from this video to Channel 4 and you have taken credit for it in this community.

If you are going to claim that I am false you may want to change the statement... "Also we never used anything from the RIT arm, maybe at a push it could be closer to the raptor wing."

Even better, maybe you should offer them some credit.

Drew MurrayYesterday 23:09

Actually where is the ECF's Director of Community Engagement in all of this ? +Justine C Diamond 

Jeff ErenstoneYesterday 23:13

+Drew Murray I speak for myself and not ECF so she doesn't need to respond unless she wants to.

Jen OwenYesterday 23:19


Drew MurrayYesterday 23:24

+Jeff Erenstone Nope I dont remember being on that hangout, infant I have only ever been on 2 hangouts in total, as despite being a global community they are only ever times to suit USA times.

I'm not chaining anything I said, YOU said we didn't correctly attribute work and YOUR WRONG. The post you link to is of a RIT arm and NOT our Team UnLimbited arm, we did CLEARLY attribute that work and always have done to RIT and OUR RIT-Phoenix adaptor WE created.

Likewise for our UnLimbited arm we have always attributed the work to our influences and where we have collaborated with other community members.

If your in a huff that you never got attributed to the Unlimited arm and thermo-forming then maybe 7 months later in the mist of an argument on here is a little late to raise it.

You say that I took credit from +stephen davies and YOUR WRONG, we work together and post about each others efforts all the time.

Finally in your own style, assuming that nothing else warrants comment then I take this as your acceptance of the other points you raise.

Who are you speaking on behalf of anyway +Jeff Erenstone the person or the +Jeff Erenstone associated with the ECF. In either scenario I'm sure the ECF would not approve of your attitude; is this what the ECF mean by "Supporting the Community" by what, providing free amazing arguments ?

Joe CrossYesterday 23:25

Golly, that was an exhausting ride of anger and half-truths +Jeff Erenstone. It had all of the maturity and accuracy of a Trump rally.

To the adults in the room - I believe it's fair to say that if one of our community members accepted 100 hands from other community members, put them in a closet and then asked for another 750 hands, it would be reasonable for me to ask "What are you doing with all of those hands?" And it would be reasonable for me to expect them to answer. Or we would simply never send them another hand. But somehow the ECF gets away with not answering the question like the rest of us would have to.

I very much look forward to a day when new community members can make an explicit decision about where to send demo hands, which organizations to donate to, and how best to contribute to the community as opposed to today where they are automatically (and opaquely) routed into supporting the ECF. Like other markets, it will reward groups that respect their stakeholders and demonstrate positive results.

Drew MurrayYesterday 23:30+1

+Grace Mastalli by +1 +Jeff Erenstone comment you as ECF Chief Executive Officer & President are endorsing his words in your role. This negative attitude to the very community who created this movement stands to destroy you and your creditabiltiy.

Jon SchullYesterday 23:34

Is anyone under the illusion that these arguments, in this spirit, in this venue, is helpful?

We have a code of conduct for interacting with each other, and we have a few processes in place for ensuring that we do much good, and no harm.

The code of conduct for volunteers is simple (but deep!)
Embrace a spirit of sharing

Question arguments, not motives

Offer solutions as well as diagnoses

Demonstrate respect for others at all times

Respect and protect recipients and their families

Recognize that our collective success will ultimately be determined by our individual examples.
If you agree, abide. If you don't, please say why.

Not everything has to be argued in the public square.

Drew MurrayYesterday 23:37

oh come on +Jon Schull this thread is actually quite amusing when you see how ridiculous it all is. I recon it be best left to burn out, bit like a good old pillow fight ? TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP !!!

stephen daviesYesterday 23:46+1

To be clear... I did not recently release an image from my video to Channel 4. (Isabella was invited to London and this was shot on set for the Paralympics "yes I can" trailer. We have not taken credit, just taken pride in her journey and celebrated our recipients achievements. Isabella is a wonderful ambassador for e-Nable. She actually wanted to wear her UnLimbited arm for that video BTW. The RIT arm was my first build and I could see improvements needed to be made right from the beginning. I did my best to evolve the design, but ultimately rejected the design based on recipient feedback. This path led to the design of our UnLimbited arm. Inspiration was taken from many sources and we have ALWAYS credited them. I did this with input and advice from the community I am grateful too, and a loyal member of. I do all this because of a deep desire to help others like me, not for credit, ECF funding or political gain. 

Jeff Erenstone02:19

+stephen davies I beg to differ... on your webpage states... "Isabella previsouly received a RIT arm from Team UnLimbited" (including the typo).....

So you have taken "credit".

However there is nothing wrong with you getting some of the credit for your work with Isabella. You did the fabricating the RIT/Pheniox arm so you deserve credit.

The point I have been making is that you have also benefited from the work of others in this community and some of those people have chosen to spend their time working with ECF.

So they deserve "credit" as well and don't deserve be aliened from the "community".

If you don't want to be involved with ECF than fine, stop publicly criticising them as +Jon Schull has asked I suspect that they will be happy to have nothing to do with you.

ECF is part of the community, its members have been working hard for years and they don't deserve to be constantly criticised by you +Jen Owen +Drew Murray and +Joe Cross.

Do your work and we will do our work and maybe progress will get made.

It seams that this is more likely to make a better world then constantly cutting other people down.

Jon Schull02:21+1

+Jen Owen First of all, I think you are demonstrating that you AGREE with the code of conduct. That's nice. (I think it's critical.)

At the risk of being holier-than-thou, I'm going to weigh in...on process, not issues. Because right now, the Community's process is more critical to the community's survival than what the Foundation does or doesn't do.

Regarding your points

1. "Embrace a spirit of sharing." I have no problem with respectful questions. The ECF cannot be compelled to answer, and in some cases is not free to answer. Trust ECF or don't, but let's get on with our work and not waste time blaming the Foundation. This is the community's community; let's not burn it down.

2. " Question arguments - not motives." The problem with questioning motives is that s/he whose motives are being questioned is compelled to respond in kind, or to escalate. That's what happens when someone is accused of "attacking". The only solution I know is to not to do it, and to not take the bait if it is done unto you.

3. "Offer solutions as well as diagnoses" My previous paragraph was a diagnosis followed by a solution. (OK I am being holier than thou , but I want to make a point). Suggesting that ECF do X is fine, but it's not "offering a solution" unless ECF agrees to do X. If the community can create a system that makes it easy to do what needs to be done, either ECF will adopt it, or the community can can do it. But first we have to help members and volunteers organize themselves to do what needs to be done. Badging is a good first step. I have some ideas. I'll share them.

4. Respect. Yes. Is everyone listening?

5. "Recognize that our collective success will ultimately be determined by our individual examples." Resentment and frustration and anger is unavoidable with this many players doing something this hard in an "online environment" that is notoriously under-evolved. (I have some ideas for evolving the environment. I'll share them.) /Expressing/ resentment frustration and anger /in the commons/ is a choice. Resisting the urge, and taking extra time to weed out phrases that may trigger resentment, frustration, and anger in others is the example we have to set.

Trust me: I'm mad as hell about all sorts of things. Paragon of virtue that I am, I will only discuss that over beer, not in the commons.

Jen Owen03:41

sorry +Jon Schull - but I accidentally deleted my comment that you are responding to here while trying to edit it on my phone - so no one is able to see what i said and I am tired of responding to this thread so I am just going to let it be said that yes, I agree with the code of conduct but I do not agree that we should always have discussions on hard topics in the shadows.

There is a need for people to see that they are not alone in their questions and concerns and they need to be able to have a space where they can discuss it with others in this community and where people who might be feeling the same - can participate in the group discussion.

While discussing frustrations with a system is fine to do over a beer in person or in tiny little chats - it isn't logical in this situation where people are spread out across the globe, in numerous time zones and when there are over 8000 of us and many who have had the same questions but are too afraid to ask.

I think it is unhealthy to consistently ask the community to shoosh and only converse about these concerns in private and I hope that the moderators that get elected will invite more healthy discussions that will help to bring more voices to the table and offer solutions and answers that will help evolve this community into something even greater.

That is all.

Jon Schull04:28

Sorry I wasn't clear.

I am not asking that we "shoosh"!

I'm saying there are ways of speaking out and getting things done, And ways of speaking out that make it harder to get things done. We need more of the former and less of the latter.

And by the way, in that kind of environment I think more people will be more willing to speak up and volunteer to help, confident that they will not be caught in the crossfire.

Jen Owen05:22

+Jon Schull - I guess the bottom line is this:

*Why is it that when a member of this community asks for a simple answer to "where are these 750 hands going" when coming upon a news article - we get the run around and no actual answer and another "we can't tell you this information" and "we dont have staffing that can constantly share this kind of thing when you ask" but yet if you google "Enable Community Foundation Autodesk 750 hands" - you can learn that these hands are going to:

- United Arab Emirates and "other areas in the Middle East"

Why is it that there is time to type that or state that to numerous media outlets or in a press release but not type (or even copy and paste!! Or link to another article that shares this information!) those few words here in this thread so that the question can be answered and laid to rest? Or so people can be excited with the news and celebrate? We didn't ask for specifics. We simply wanted to know where these 750 hands were going and where in the world they would end up that needs 750 hands all at once.

That is my biggest question right now.

What is it that makes it so difficult for there to be the same information shared in this community that was shared with media?

Instead of "These hands will go to the UAE and clinics in the Middle East" - I got a schpeal about recipient privacy and a run around answer.

I do not understand why that was such a hard and difficult question to answer.

For those who want to read where I got the "Middle East and UAE" from - here are some links for you:

QUARTZ: ... the-world/

+Chuck Untulis +Shashi Jain +Joe Cross +Drew Murray and anyone else who was interested - the 750 hands are going to "UAE and the Middle East" and will be distributed by clinics and teams in more remote areas.

The end.

Joe Cross08:29


Having woken up from a decent night of sleep and run until I am too exhausted to be angry, I am going to agree with +Jon Schull. This thread went too far off course to be of value to our community. I can only imagine what this must look like to most of our community members :-(

I love the debate, however, and hope it leads to better outcomes for our recipients. But this thread should really be somewhere else. If there are answers or decisions that come from it, we can post them back to G+ so the community can benefit. Maybe we could pick this up on our forums? That keeps everything in the open but preserves the spirit of our G+ group.

Let's all go back to our corners, count to 10 and come out swinging here: viewforum.php?f=2


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